Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the chairman co-founder of iRelaunch and your host for today. Today we welcome Michelle Friedman, founder of Advancing Women's Careers, and special advisor to iRelaunch. Michelle and I do a lot of presenting together at companies running career reentry programs, and we see relaunchers at the beginning, middle and end of these programs. One of the topics we introduced in our mid-career program orientations is about the learning curve, learning curves and relaunching, and mastery of what you have to learn on the job once you're back.

We're going to be speaking with Michelle in depth about this concept today, what it is, how it works and why it's important to relaunchers. Welcome, Michelle, to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

MIchelle Friedman: Thank you, Carol. I'm so glad to be here with you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, it's great to have you, and I'm realizing that in addition to the work that you do with relaunchers, you are also an executive coach. And can you talk just for a minute about some of the work that you do with senior level leaders?

MIchelle Friedman: Sure. I've been coaching mid and senior level leaders inside large, complex organizations for the past 10 years. So the topic we're talking about today, transitions and learning curves is something that comes up in my executive coaching sessions all the time.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Great. And we'll talk more about the relevance of that to the discussion in a little bit. But before we really get into this, can you set the stage for us and tell us more about a learning curve, or looking at performance or mastery versus time? How do you visualize it? And what's helpful for relaunchers in thinking about this process?

MIchelle Friedman: Well, when somebody is relaunching their career, they're going through a change and the transition that goes along with that change. There's a lot to learn in returning to work and starting a new job. When we as coaches talk about learning curves, or transition, or a model we're going to talk about today, the four stages of competence, it's about how do you help people move through that learning process? And some points of it can be quite uncomfortable, and then come out on the other side and really feel settled and confident in their abilities to contribute in their new role.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And this is quite a process. I'm even remembering from my relaunch back at Bain Capital as a financial analyst almost 18 years ago, and how you come in and there are all these stages of learning about your confidence, your competence, actually.

And I wonder, can you walk us through what those stages are and talk about it in terms of the learning curve?

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah. And first I just want to comment, this is a great example where you were reflecting on a time in the past that you've been through this learning curve, and what we're talking about here applies to people of course, in re-entry programs.

But, it really applies to us in all parts of our life. Anytime we're learning something new, adapting to new situations, and starting from having very little knowledge about something ultimately to where we feel really comfortable. So let's talk about the different stages of what this could be like.

Okay. So when we're in the re-entry programs and working with a cohort at that first session, during the orientation, we put up a slide, and it has a curve on it. And we have that curve in its four different stages. I'm going to walk through the stages and describe what they mean.

The first stage is called unconscious incompetence. Okay, so a great example of this is ignorance is bliss. We don't know what we don't know at that point. And actually, I think it might be helpful as an illustration, maybe to use the example of driving a car, learning how to drive a car as I talk about these stages, and then it'll be obvious how this applies to reentry. One of my kids actually just got his driver's license. And if you think about watching someone learn how to drive a car, or maybe your own experience in that. In the beginning, you don't know what you don't know, you're in the unconscious incompetence phase, and you've been watching other people do it, you played it on video games. And you probably have a pretty good level of confidence and actual excitement. That's what we definitely see at the beginning of starting a new job.

And then as time goes on and you have experiences, you move into the second phase, which is called conscious incompetence. So this is the phase that kind of hits you in the face with, now I know what I don't know, where previously, you didn't know what you didn't know.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Like those cars on the right-hand side of the road that are parked that you have to drive by, I'm closer to those than I thought I was going to be.

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah, or for my son, I was just in the car with him. I'm about to merge onto a busy highway, "Oh, wow!" Yeah, now I'm realizing how incompetent I feel at this because this is a new skill. It's a new situation. I don't have a lot of practice at it. And that's when someone really starts to realize the deficits in their knowledge or their skills.

And it can actually be very overwhelming. And for people who are high achievers and good at everything that they do, to be in that place where they are starting to feel very conscious of their incompetence is a feeling that usually comes along with a lot of discomfort. And the truth is that in this phase, the best learning comes from making "mistakes," that's how people learn. But it doesn't always feel good.

And then the next stage is called conscious competence. So now I know what I know. And coming back to the driving example, "Oh, wow! Okay." So I'm driving along. I feel pretty confident. But I'm paying attention to everything that I'm doing. I need a very high level of concentration to execute this new skill. But, this is a relief and I feel satisfied because my learning is starting to pay off.

And the fourth stage is called unconscious competence. So this is basically autopilot. And for someone who has driven a car for many years, it's that feeling of, I get in the car, I automatically know what to do, and this process is running in the background and I can think about other things or have a conversation. You've had so much practice that it almost becomes a little bit like second nature. And in a reentry program, that might not be on autopilot at the end of the program, but you definitely, and I've seen this with folks in cohorts where they say, "Oh, okay. So I'm getting to work every day." I'm getting used to a commute" or "I'm able to speak up in meetings," and they are just kind of in the mode. They're not so aware of riding this learning curve with the rollercoaster feel that it often has.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Michelle, what about the situation like, for example the one I was in, where I was a financial analyst before in the late eighties, and then I had my 11 year career break. And then in 2001, I'm a financial analyst again, but I'm in this new environment. I had to learn Excel all over again, I had to learn PowerPoint. So there were these tech tools, and also there were new financial instruments that didn't exist before. So some of the fundamental knowledge was actually relearning versus learning something new. And then there was, of course, all the new stuff I was learning too.

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah. I would say both of those categories, stuff that you're catching up on or dusting off the cobwebs, and things that are brand new for you for the first time, I think the learning curve concept applies to both. And what you might see is something where you're relearning it or getting caught back up. You're going to be activating the knowledge that you had before. So this learning curve may be a little bit not as deep of a curve and you move through it a little bit more quickly, where something for the first time might feel more daunting.

And we can talk about this later, but also, when we think about the curve and getting into a dip and moving through this rollercoaster, a lot of it is state of mind. It's, how do you feel during all of this? And we can talk about some strategies to manage those emotions.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Michelle, let's actually talk about the dip. Can you define, what is the dip? And maybe give an example? What do people feel like when they're going into the dip and then how do they get themselves out of it?

MIchelle Friedman: So the dip is generally phase two, that conscious incompetence. At that point, here's a sign that you're in the dip. When you start hearing these voices in your head saying, "What have I done," or "You're in over your head" or, " You know what, maybe they hired the wrong person for this job." Right? "I'm not really as qualified as I can be." It’s that inner critic. That's where your confidence starts lagging.

It can be overwhelming. And sometimes we focus on, or what I've seen is people feel very overwhelmed by everything that they want to learn in a new job. And it's a matter of figuring out, what do I need during these first few months to get acclimated and start performing and get settled in my role? And then what are the other things I want to keep learning as I go? And in some of the big companies that we work with, Carol, as you know in these reentry programs, they tend to have very extensive learning platforms that are available to any employee. And you could spend 24 hours a day pouring through that and trying to learn. And it's really a matter of pacing yourself and trying to manage the overwhelm.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You know, I remember last year we gave the Pioneering Relauncher Award to Ruth Reardon O'Brien who relaunched her career in the seventies, after having five kids. And she was out for 11 years and she came back and had a sixth kid, and she's actually Conan O'Brien's mother.

It was very fun and wonderful to award this to her. But I remember her saying, we interviewed her for Back on the Career Track when we wrote the book in 2005, we interviewed her and she said, "I got back on the job. I was responsible for all these new legal cases," she was a lawyer, "and I would just listen and take lots of notes and tell people I'd get back to them. And then in the evening I would spend a lot of time studying the law that I didn't know, and to really get back up to speed, so I'd be able to be involved in conversations in a substantive way." So sometimes there's additional work that goes on when you're relaunching, because you are trying to catch up and that's the extra effort that you sometimes have to invest in these initial weeks to get over this learning curve.

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah, I agree. It does help. It helps you feel like you're learning more and moving through those phases. But like I said, sometimes the amount of things that you could be learning is endless, especially if you're a lifelong learner and really interested in picking up all these new things.

How do you put in that extra time, but also get sleep and take care of yourself and work through all the transitions you might have at home?

Carol Fishman Cohen: Exactly. I would like to remind our listeners who might have just tuned in, that you are listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break.

This is Carol Fishman Cohen, your host, and we are speaking with Michelle Friedman, founder of Advancing Women's Careers. And we are talking about once you get on the job, learning curves and relaunching, and mastering what you need to know once you're back. And we're right in the middle of a very interesting discussion.

Michelle, I want to know if you can talk about why the learning curve is important for relaunchers, and is it more important for relaunchers than people who don't take a career break or who are starting a new job? And are there ways that you can combat the moments of fear that you might find as you're going through and then coming out of this learning curve? I know you talked about using internal corporate resources, but do you talk to your manager? Do you keep it to yourself? Do you just muscle your way through? What kinds of advice do you have for people who are relaunching and going through this learning curve?

MIchelle Friedman: Well, so to the first question about, why is this important for relaunchers? I think this is such a great topic to be talking about, because what I hope is that people who are listening to this podcast are going to have this concept now in their back pocket. Because it's just something to be aware of so that you're not surprised or feel ambushed by, "Wow, I feel like I'm in the dip. I feel like there's so much to learn. I'm so overwhelmed." What I really hope for those listening to the podcast is that they realize this might happen. And basically if you're in a growth spurt, a professional or personal growth spurt, which is what relaunching is all about, this is going to happen and there will be some discomfort.

So it's not a bad thing, is I guess what I'm wanting to say, to be sort of expecting it and to frame it as, "Okay. I'm in that learning phase right now." And then that's really how people grow by taking on challenges.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And then from what you've seen, the cohorts that you've worked with, can you comment on how long does it take for people to get on the other side of these dips, emerge and feel confident again and move on and feel like they've had some mastery?

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah. I think it's a very individual thing. Because like I said, a lot of this is a state of mind and how well somebody manages their feelings about being incompetent at different phases and how much support they have. But, when it comes to people in the re-entry cohorts, it's really rare to see someone still in a dip or struggling or not making it through this curve by the end of the program.

And I especially see things turning around at the midpoint. Usually if that dip is going to happen, it's usually in the first half of the program when there's so much adjustment going on. But by that midpoint, you start to see the confidence and the competence really steadily grow. And of course they feed off of each other.

So as you're feeling more competent, you start to feel more confident and then you're going to take more risks. So it's really a good thing. And also, when we meet with the cohorts at that midpoint, I think the biggest takeaway for them is people realizing that they're not alone.

It normalizes the experience of, "Oh my gosh. I thought that it was just me who was feeling this way," or "I was scared to share this with other people, but now I realize this is a thing and it's very typical and it's happening to other people in my cohort and it happens really to anyone who's starting a new job."

So I think that's important to keep in mind.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. Well, think about this for a second. I'm just wondering, these programs have different lengths. Some of them are 12 weeks, some of them are 16 weeks, some of them are six months. Do you think people attack this learning curve or emerge from it at different rates because of how long their program is, or is this sort of happening independent of the length of the program? And what if there's no program?

MIchelle Friedman: So, it's a really interesting question. Because by having boundaries on a program, a start date and an end date, in a way it's signaling to the participants, this is the transition phase. We structured this program so that it can feel safe to be in a learning mode. We want to see performance and we want to make sure that there's a good fit on both sides, but you're in a special category during that particular program.

But when the program wraps up, for better or for worse, you're going to be just like everybody else. And so I think by having those defined dates at the start and ending it almost creates a length of time that we think it's going to take to move through the curve.

And you're not going to have mastered everything by the end of a 12 or 16 or 18 week program. But most people, you've seen them from the difference between their first day and their last day. It's transformation, right? They're almost like a different person. And it's a really good question. Could you be that different person 12 weeks later, or could you be that different person 18 weeks later based on the length of the program?

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, it is really interesting because I'm thinking about the programs that are longer. And when we're talking to employers, we can tell them because we've seen this, that even if you have a six month program, we tell them, you're probably going to know, and the person's going to know too, who's working out and who's not working out by three and a half-ish months.

You'll have a really good sense, and so will the individual. So I wonder if that indicates something about how long it takes regardless of the length of the program.

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah, there's a really well-known book by Michael Watkins called The First 90 Days. And I use this as a tool with executives all the time who may not be changing companies, but they're changing roles or taking on a new team.

Anytime you're really starting something new there is something magical about the number 90 days. The theory behind this and all of the tools and the strategies for using during those 90 days is based on the assumption that at the end of 90 days, you're pretty acclimated and you would have established yourself. You would have figured out what you needed to learn. You should really be able to convert from being in more of a learning mode to really more of a performance mode. And so I do think that there is something to that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I'm trying to remember, years ago when I was back, because I was part, there was no program, I was a one-off hire. No one was even talking about this back in 2001. And I'm thinking at the three month point, did I have my sea legs? I can't even remember to be sure. But you would think around that time, you feel some degree of comfort.

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah. And there may be people listening to this podcast who are not in a defined re-entry program. They're going to be returning just like you did. So it's a good question. Do you give yourself a little bit of a "deadline" without putting too much pressure on yourself, but just giving yourself permission to use those first 90 days to get established and acclimated, and figure out what you need to do to really perform well and start performing.

But then at 90 days, you don't have to walk around feeling like “I'm just the new person” or “I took a five-year career break and I'm still trying to figure this all out.” It might be we're thinking about that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, along those lines, Michelle, is it helpful to relaunchers to actually chart this, or do you think it's better not to get too fixated on this because you have a lot of other things you're supposed to be focusing on. Is it helpful or not helpful to think about this in a concrete way?

MIchelle Friedman: I think it's somewhere in between. And again, it's very individual. I think, on the one hand you do want to be aware of this. Like I said, you want to be a little bit on the lookout for it.

Not to say, “Okay, when's my dip going to happen?” “Am I going to be so despondent with everything I have to learn?” You want you to just be aware that this is totally normal. It's typical. It's not a bad thing to be in a dip, or to feel like you're on this rollercoaster of a learning curve.

But on the other hand, when you say, should they chart this? I do think that there is something to do periodically, and we do this with our coaching sessions and the reentry programs, to pause, reflect, take stock of everything that you've learned to date, even the very small things, and give yourself credit for what you are learning. Because it's very easy to get distracted and to always be focused on what you don't know yet.

And just keeping track of those small wins. And, at the outset, putting together a sense of vision, what do I want these next few months to look like? What would success look like? What are my goals? And then chunking it out and just being able to execute on it. It makes it feel more manageable and you can have some small, quick wins, and even a small win can be a game changer.

So, I mean, you could plot these on the curve, but my point is, paying attention to making it and you're giving yourself enough credit for everything.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And maybe, you're learning lots of different things. So I remember I had done my financial analysis so long ago it was on Lotus 1,2,3. I always have to laugh about how dated that is. But I had to relearn it on Excel. I didn't find it that hard. It was pretty straightforward. But PowerPoint, for some reason, I was more hung up on. Now I can't even understand that because PowerPoint seems so natural to me. And I'm sure most relaunchers now, these kinds of things are something you naturally already know. But there's something new like Slack, or some sort of new technology tool that you are not familiar with now, even if you've been using some technology while you've been on career break, and you need to learn that. And that's not even fundamental to the actual job that you're doing. That's fundamental to how you operate within your organization. So, Michelle, do you have any tips on how people can move through the learning curve at a faster pace? Because sometimes relaunchers are worried that this whole process is going to take them too long.

MIchelle Friedman: I think anyone who's starting a new role, especially if it's a new role in a new organization which would be the case for a lot of relaunchers, is that they do feel the pressure to learn a lot and learn it quickly. So I have a few tips. But I would say the umbrella comment that applies to all of this is that you literally have to make a learning plan for yourself. You have to sit down and plan to learn and organize it in a way that feels like there are reasonable goals, it feels that you're not drinking from the fire hose constantly, which you will be. But how do you then follow up and learn the things that you need to learn in an organized fashion so that you're not putting too much pressure on yourself, and that you're also learning the things that are most important first, so you can stage the rest of the learning.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Does that mean that people need to track more than one thing that they're going through the learning curve on, there are a few big ticket items that they have to have a learning plan for, or how does that work?

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah. There's going to be a lot to learn in a new role. And I think it's helpful to organize that in some fashion and to literally put a plan together. So in that plan, I mean, if you first start with a brain dump and as you start meeting with people, as you are out in the organization and figuring out what the things are that are going to be most important to you right away and relevant in your role, is to literally start writing them down. Do a brain dump. Keep all of that in one place and then put some organization to it.

And there's a number of ways that you could bucket that. You can look at what are the immediate must haves. Maybe there's a system that you need to learn right away to start doing what you're doing. Obviously that's going to be, in terms of a timeline, something you're going to want to learn sooner than later. There might be some things that are very interesting for you to learn or you want to know eventually, but it's not an immediate need. That might be the next steps, and maybe you timeline that a month from now, let's say. And then once you figure out what's most important right away, and what can come a little bit down the road, then you can sort it by what are the things that are technical, like systems that you need to learn, products that you need to get familiar with, client groups.

And then what are things that you can absorb through paying attention, or you can ask people about, which are more about the cultural side of things in an organization. When we first land in an organization, it's like landing in a new country and trying to figure out the customs and way things are done.

And some of that, you observe and figure it out on your own, but to get up that curve faster, it's really good to have a mentor or people that you can ask those questions like, "What does that area do over there?" Or, "I noticed that this other group keeps getting cc'd on our projects, why is that?" and, "When are people not cc'd," some of the culture and the politics behind your role. And another thing on the softer side is just figuring out how your boss likes to interact with you. Is your boss more of a spur of the moment, stop by my office, anytime kind of person, do they like structured interactions?

These are all the things that you want to put on your learning plan. And the benefit of having a plan, is it enables you to chunk it out. You can't do it all at once. Certainly on the technical side of things, and some of the softer skills, I would review with your boss and say, "Here's what I have observed that I need to be learning about. And what are the other things? Where do you want me to prioritize? What should I focus on?" And this becomes a plan or a document that you can work through and keep revisiting as time goes on.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And maybe when you have the conversations with your boss or a tech mentor or some other trusted person, then you say to them, "I realized I really need to learn a lot more about X, what are some of the recommended resources that I should consult in order to start that learning process?" And then does that maybe jump-start it a little bit, because suddenly you're fully aware of what you don't know at that point, and then you're moving on to getting over that hump to feel more comfortable with what you're starting to learn?

MIchelle Friedman: Anything that's on this plan that you've identified as a priority for your learning should have a resource attached to it, or resources. So for a particular system, what is the best way to learn that? A lot of organizations have online tutorials and online learning platforms that you may be pointed to as a resource.

Carol, you always talk about YouTube being an ally.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes.

MIchelle Friedman: And just Googling things, or the identified resource might be a person. Someone will say, "Well, you know, the best way to learn about what that group does that we interact with a lot is for you to sit down with Bob." And if you don't feel comfortable reaching out to Bob, maybe you can ask that person who's made that recommendation to make an introduction, or you might just go ahead and do it on your own. But knowing what your resources are, also I think, helps to break things down and to make everything very actionable. And you can just move through it piece by piece.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You know, mentioning Google, it's significant because we've even had some of our highly technical relaunchers say that it's their first line of defense, not just the video tutorials that I swear by, but looking up any, even highly technical topic on Google and how to approach it sometimes gets you part of the answer that is really helpful.

MIchelle Friedman: It's amazing how much is available online. And with a Google search, that could be your fastest way to get to an answer for sure. So that's always a resource. And then it's, what are the other things that are more specific? What are those places that you can go, or people that you can speak to, to learn what you need to learn about different aspects of your job?

It could look a little daunting once you put everything down on paper, in terms of the various things that you want to learn, by when, what the resources are. So I would say as you move through your first few months of a new role, make sure you keep track of small successes. It's really nice to move things off that learning plan onto a done list. And, it gives positive encouragement and a sense that you are really making a dent in that learning plan by taking credit for even small, little things.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Excellent advice. So, anything else that relaunchers should be thinking about in regard to the learning curve that we haven't talked about yet?

MIchelle Friedman: Well, I think that hopefully a big takeaway from this conversation is, if you're not learning, you're not growing. So this is just a part of re entering the workforce and starting a new job. Just building up this tolerance for this discomfort that you might feel during those conscious incompetence phases, is a muscle that you're building for the future. Because organizations want people to always be learning and growing.

You're going to get adjusted, you're going to get settled in this job and do a wonderful job in this new role. And then you might get promoted and you might be in another role where you are going to start the curve all over again. I think, just to keep in mind that what you're doing here is going to serve you the rest of your career.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right, like initially this has to do with relaunching, but ultimately this is something that people deal with all the time who never took career breaks in the first place. And as you move on and you become an executive leader or you become, in whatever role, if you're relaunching as a nurse or a technologist or a librarian, you are then going to be more in a mode of, I'm now a person who has been working here for a while and the career break isn't even that relevant to me, but I'm going to have learning curves, just like any other person has learning curves, who didn't take one.

MIchelle Friedman: Yeah, the learning curve that's associated with, "Wow. How do I figure out how to insert a full-time or part-time job back into a very busy life that I had," that will be behind you, right?

But you will be put in different positions where you're not going to feel competent at all, and you're gonna be starting from scratch, learning something new. And being able to talk yourself through it, have a support system and all that is really helpful. There's a concept called learning agility, and there are some companies that they believe the best way to grow leaders in their organizations is to pick people up and to move them into different roles every 18 to 24 months.

And what they're looking for is somebody who you can drop in a new area, they don't know much about it, but they're bringing all the skills from what they used to do. And they're cross-pollinating ideas and strategies. And how quickly can this person get up to speed and live with the discomfort of not knowing what's going on at the beginning.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And you know, we hear employers talk about that they're less focused on what a person knows and more focused about whether they're fearless about learning more and how coachable they are. So it's also maybe good for individuals to think about themselves in those terms

MIchelle Friedman: Being good at learning things.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. Good. Well we are running out of time, Michelle, and I wonder if you can, if we can close by answering a question that we ask all of our podcast guests, and that is what is your top piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something we've already talked about in our conversation today?

MIchelle Friedman: Well, I think the top piece of advice is related to what we're talking about here, and it is just putting this relaunch chapter in perspective. It's one chapter of a life and a career that has many chapters to it. And it's very exciting and it can also be overwhelming and terrifying at the same time.

But if you get really clear on what's important to you now, and you create a plan and chunk it out and make it happen, you will find success and you'll have a formula for earning future successes on top of that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's excellent advice, and thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us today.

MIchelle Friedman: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Now, can you tell people and companies how they can find out more about Advancing Women's Careers?

MIchelle Friedman: Sure. You can go to our website and that's Advanced Women's Careers (awcny.com). You can also find me on LinkedIn or Twitter and I'm happy to be in touch.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Great. Thank you so much.

You've been listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice and success stories about returning to work after a career break.

I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, chair and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. For more information about iRelaunch, go to iRelaunch.com. And if you liked this podcast, be sure to rate it on iTunes and your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media.

Thanks for joining us.