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EP 283:Relaunch success in Tech Sales after a 17-year break and nearing age 50 with Elizabeth Andrew

Elizabeth Andrew headshot

Episode Description

Elizabeth Andrew is a top-producing technology sales executive, startup advisor, and TEDx speaker who has established herself as a leader, motivator, and role model. Elizabeth achieved career success by breaking down barriers in the San Francisco technology space at nearly 50 years old and after a 17-year career break, with no technology experience.

Elizabeth has been a three-time VP of sales working for companies including Hello Sign, Dropbox, Puma, and Netomi. She is now the co-founder and CEO at Sales Compete. We discuss in detail the steps Elizabeth took to resume her sales career and will also hear about her recent entrepreneurial venture.

Earlier, Elizabeth was featured as an iRelaunch Relauncher of the Month.

Read Transcript

Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO, and Co- founder of iRelaunch and your host. Before we get started, I want to remind our listeners who are actively relaunching to make sure to register and upload your resume on our iRelaunch Job Board. This is where we go to share relaunchers profiles with employers that are hiring for their career re-entry jobs and programs. So it's important that your profile and resumes are in there. Today, we welcome Elizabeth Andrew. Elizabeth is a top-producing technology, sales executive, startup advisor, and TEDx speaker who has established herself as a leader, motivator, and role model with her inspiring story of career re-entry by breaking barriers into the San Francisco technology space at nearly 50 years old after a seventeen-year career break with no technology experience.

Elizabeth has been a three-time VP of sales working for companies, including Hello Sign, Dropbox, Puma, and Netomi. She is currently the co-founder and CEO at Sales Compete. In today's episode, we're going to speak with Elizabeth about her relaunch, time in the corporate world and experience founding her company.

In her early career before becoming a stay-at-home mom, Elizabeth was VP and Director with Wells Fargo Asset Management, where she opened up the New England region as a mutual fund wholesaler and grew territory assets from zero to 70 million. Her success story has been featured as an iRelaunch Relauncher of the Month.

Elizabeth. Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

Elizabeth Andrew: Hi, Carol. It's great to be here. Always fun to see you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes. I feel like we go back a long way and I remember following your story from very early on, so the idea that we are sitting here now, having this conversation is very significant.

Elizabeth Andrew: It really is. I know, I feel like you were with me all along in my relaunch journey.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. And I wanna know if we can start by hearing a little bit about your background. I know I just gave sort of a quick sketch, but can you talk a little bit more about what you did prior to your career break, and then what prompted you to step away from the workforce?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned, I have a very unusual background for, specifically for tech.

I started out in the investment industry. I'm from the San Francisco Bay area and after college I was working in San Francisco. I started at Franklin Funds and, ended up at Wells Fargo Asset Management. It was after, I don't know, I know you know quite a bit about banking in the east coast, it was after the Glass-Steagall Act had lifted and banks were able to distribute investment products for the first time.

And so Wells Fargo was looking to build their very first mutual fund company, and they hired me to come on and help them. There was about four of us, so it felt very much like a startup, even though it was backed, very well resourced by Wells Fargo. And we took that from zero to over a billion dollars in assets for Wells Fargo Asset Management.

I started out, a built an inside sales team, hired, trained and managed a team of sellers, and then, the last region we went into as a mutual fund company was the northeast, and they asked me to go out and open up that region because of course the northeast is the investment capital of the world, the way the Bay certainly was before the pandemic, tech.

And so I moved out to your neck of the woods to Boston in my late twenties and opened up that region in New England, and calling on, all the brokerage firms, Merrill Lynch and Smith Barney and working outta my house in my car and, quite an interesting run as I'm sure you know and can imagine too. In those days, certainly in the northeast, that industry was very male-dominated.

I was always the only woman in the room and so it was a really interesting experience. I had a great time. I took it from zero to 70 million in sales and when I moved east, my family said, Go for two years. Have a great time. Don't fall in love. I ended up marrying a new Yorker and moving out to Manhattan, which is what prompted me to leave the workforce and and take 17 years off to raise my kids.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Well, you know, I started my career in the mutual fund industry as you, you referenced. I'm actually born and raised in Southern California and I worked in LA for the American Funds Group, capital Research and Management, my first job out of college, and really loved that industry and being on the buy side of things.

So I do have a vivid recollection of, much of what you're talking about. Yeah. So then you were home for 17 years and I was, during that time, were you even thinking about going back to work or were you still sort of connected, like reading about the financial world or doing anything that connected you to professional interests or were, did you feel like it was a pretty complete professional


Elizabeth Andrew: Absolutely disconnected. You know, the nice thing, the exciting thing for me is, the time we were, so, I got married to a New Yorker, we were living in Manhattan. Then when we started our family, we moved up to the suburbs in Connecticut, and I spent 17 years doing mostly volunteer work. I'm not one of those that can just play tennis and relax. You know, I spent a lot of time doing nonprofits and fundraising and event planning and all that sort of thing. And many of those roles were harder than anything I've done professionally. You're dealing with volunteers. You can't fire them. I also happen to be, I think, by nature of that area, which, so many, and they were mostly women that I was doing these volunteer jobs with, came out of great careers. So, you know, this was a very high caliber group of, kind of event planners and things. I always, I used to joke some of the committees I was on could have run the Battle of Normandy.

I mean, it was, it was an interesting group. But, having said that, it wasn't until I removed all of my volunteer work that anybody would take me seriously when I was relaunching.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Hmm, interesting. Now, it was a little bit of a different time, we were relaunching our careers, I relaunched mine way before you did, but also when you relaunched, it was pretty early on and there's been, kind of a shift and people can put more of their volunteer activities on. But at the time you, you were saying that you weren't taken seriously until you took all of that off your resume. So can you just give us a sense of, was there a moment where you just woke up one day and said, I need to get back to work.

Did it have something to do with what stage your family was at? How did you decide that, now's the time?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yes. Yeah. I had been married twenty-one years. I ended up getting divorced and this was before that, I was still married. But we moved back to the San Francisco Bay area as a family and my kids were getting a little bit older.

I knew that the marriage was failing and, you know, just felt like it's time for me to get back to work. And and that was, I mean it, and you're absolutely right. I've, you and I have, I joined you when you were invited to speak at Dreamforce, and I remember how exciting that was, and yeah, it was a different time.

And I think that it's much more acceptable to have a variety of different experience and volunteer and all different types of things on your resume today than it was at that time. But this was back in 2011 and it wasn't until I removed everything. I was completely unemployable. I actually found my first job back at Putnam Investments, working for the West Region Director of Sales 20 hours a week.

I found the job on Craigslist.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay. I wanna get into that. I just wanna give a little bit of background to our audience that Dreamforce was the big annual event that Salesforce held. I think 150,000 people come, at least in 2017 when we were both there and, on stage together talking about relaunching.

It's this massive event. And it was amazing to have the opportunity to participate in it, especially in a session that revolved all around career reentry. So you are returning in 2011. Just to give the perspective, so my career break was 1990 through 2001, so I returned in 2001, only because I had friends who I had worked with before who were now at my new, the new company and they, the company that was new to me that I relaunched at, and that's the only reason I got the job. And yeah.

So you are relaunching maybe 10 years after that still very, very little is going on. Goldman Sachs that started the Returnship program, 2008. JP Morgan didn't start the second one until 2013, so you are actually relaunching a few years into the recession where we were still in a very difficult place.

We didn't really emerge from the recession, at least my recollection until around 2013. So how did that actually, so Putnam put an ad in Craigslist for a part-time role? Like in sales support or something like that?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yes. Yeah, it, there was a, it was the west region director of sales and just needed some kind of sales enablement support out here. And gosh, I think that's just an example, if you're looking for a job to explore, be resourceful. Yeah. You never know where it's gonna come from. It may not come from a big job board or LinkedIn. You just keep your options open.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay. So you're responding to this job opening you see in Craigslist. It's in the financial mutual fund industry. And did, had you done any updating, were they like thrown off by your career breaks or what was that process actually getting the job?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, I, I mean all, so I had a few what I called contract jobs prior to that. I did find a couple, I had a friend of mine who's a business owner that makes kind of industrial signs for hospitals.

And so I helped her with some jobs. I found another company that I did some recruiting for, so I had done some little contract projects leading up to this. But this was my first, it was 20 hours a week, but it was my first job to have benefits and all those things. And, it was not a high-paying job, but it gave me all those things I needed as a single mom to to support my family.

And it got me back, which was really great. And I was going into the city, it was about 20 hours a week, and I did that for about a year. And I just felt like, you know, here I am in San Francisco and there's so much energy at that time in San Francisco Bay area between 2011, this is closer to 2015, 2014.

It might've been 2013 actually, that I was doing that. And then, I just felt like there's no fun to be had in financial services anymore. I'd have to resit for all of my licenses as long as I'm reinventing myself. Why not try tech, 'cause it was so much going on out there. And so I did and I was able to break into the tech space. It was super interesting too 'cause I always laughed that, when I was in financial services in the northeast, wholesaling, I was the only woman in the room. And then I went to tech where I was the oldest person in the room.

Carol Fishman Cohen: All right. So I wanna dive into that a little bit. So just to jump back when you're in the part-time role at Putnam, was there some sort of adjustment period there where you're in an office, you're working with a, some sort of a office management technology system, whatever they were like back in 2011, and was there a piece of that that you sort of had to relearn and sort of get yourself at a certain point where you thought, okay, I'm relatively stable now and I know what I need to know at least to move forward in this role. Like, what was that process and how do you approach it?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah. Well, it's interesting because, one of the biggest reasons that employers, at least back, then didn't wanna hire people returning to the workforce, is they feel they're not up to speed on the technology. And the big argument that you and I have is that listen, you can teach that. You can learn that in, in six to 12 months. You can't teach 20 years of experience in six to 12 months. . So, you know, it's, there was quite a bit of a bumpy curve. I, I do remember when I was a mom, my son was, we were at school.

I had dropped my son off, this is when we were still on the east coast, and I was planning a lunch or a meeting or something with three of my friends, and they all had their, at that time, Blackberries. And I had, I had my big day planner. My son was mortified. And, so just getting up to speed with calendar invitations and all those little things, is, it's a little challenging.

And, I, the one thing that I tried really hard to do is be a student in my profession. I did go back and I signed myself up to take an Excel class. It was like a free Excel course, just some of those things so you can get up to speed with the tools. You can Google anything.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about this transition from finance to sales, especially when, I don't know how old you were at this time, but you are older than most of people in the tech industry who you came across. What was thatprocess, did you already start to know some people because of your work in finance and how did you make the leap?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah. So I could jump back and I will tell you, and I think one of the things that, sales, I have the, my foundation is in sales. And when I was in an investment wholesaler, I learned from some of the best in the industry, and I learned about building a sales process and creating repeatable processes and, making sure, like when I was wholesaling, I'm working outta my house in my car, I'd have four meetings a day every day, Monday through Thursday, Friday was always my day to schedule and follow up, and I was always scheduled two weeks out. And so I had that foundation. And I realized when I had to go back that, this is, I'm job searching, but it's essentially sales. I'm just selling myself.

It's almost like creating your own playbook, right? Focusing on setting up your, what we call, KPIs, key performance indicators, like how much activity you're gonna do. Try to apply for x number of jobs every day. Try to have x number of interviews every week, and just have your target, right?

So it's like setting up a, you can in sales, there's two things that you can control, the number of people you talk to and the quality of your presentation. So really trying to master that, you know, master who are you, what's your elevator pitch? What are you looking for as a, as an individual, what are you looking for?

I, I mentioned to you and you read at the very beginning, I'm a three-time VP of sales, five-time sales leader with companies like Hellosign and Dropbox. You wanna make sure you have your story down and then you're contacting the right number of people. So I just really treated my relaunch like sales.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And was there some like milestone moment? Was there a certain subject line on an email outreach. Was there some kind of a introduction to a particular person who became pivotal, but can you call out a couple moments where it is like this really advanced me and led to me being hired?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah. So a couple things is, again, and I think being resourceful and being a student of your profession, right? So whatever you're trying to break into, start following those thought leaders. Start reading, getting all the information you can. And I remember one of those moments I was thinking I wanted to get into technology and I started following Crunchbase, which is a news source. And I saw on, it was probably LinkedIn, that they were gonna have a meetup in the Presidio in San Francisco. It was gonna be twenty-five dollars there food trucks there. You bought your ticket in advance.

So I called a girlfriend of mine, I didn't know anybody. I said, do you wanna go? She said, sure. She ended up cancelling. So I went by myself, which is a great way to meet people. And I walk in there and it was a little intimidating 'cause there's a lot of kind of young groups of people and t-shirt, tech t-shirts by certain companies and they're all sitting together.

And, but I remember standing in line at a food truck and I met a CEO who had just moved from India, and I got talking to him and I never worked for him, but I ended up, he ended up buying my technology several years later, we kept in touch, So you just never know who you're gonna meet. So things like, I did end up bumping into somebody I know, the husband of somebody I know who got me kind of involved in one of my first tech companies back.

It was a healthcare tech company. They hired me for sales operations, which was fascinating because I, it was the tools that were hard. And sales operations is really running all those tools. But I know they hired me 'cause of my sales enablement and my breadth of experience. And, they sent me to actually the very first Dreamforce conference,

and I went and I parked myself at the Genius bar and learned as much as I could over the course of, and then, went to the expo floor and saw every technology demoed, every technology I could find. So I learned a ton there. Like a lot of startups, after a year, they ended up running out of funding and went bankrupt.

And I found myself in a job search again. And then I found a job with HelloSign as a salesperson and I found that through AngelList.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So there's a combination of things and it's interesting, and it shows your sales roots when you said, so I went by myself to that event, and it was like an opportunity to meet people, where some people would say, so I went by myself and then I was like super, feeling super awkward and intimidated.

But instead that you had conversations with people and that's that's how things happen. You talked about the first sales role went under after a year, and then you're looking for your next role. And can you talk about when you started to move up because you've had an incredible trajectory and also, did you get a sense ever that your age was, people were aware of it in some way, or did you just forget about that and, focus on the, the material and the information?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah. Well, I'll start by saying there's a lot to be said about having your back up against the wall, right? So I was a single mom, responsible for a hundred percent supporting my three kids. You know? So I had a motivation that wasn't myself. So I just put the blinders on and I think that's part of, I think sales too, right? You have to be a little thick-skinned. You've gotta be resilient. You have to, I, I stopped caring what anybody thought about how old I was or, yeah, sure there were, you definitely see it just like gender bias and whatnot. But I just didn't let it phase me. And I think that's part of being in sales too. I mean, when I was hired, so I was hired at Hellosign, and when you ask like how, there were baby steps all along. Like every step I've made has advanced my career. But I had a great run at Hello Sign. I was there four and a half years, or a little over four years, and we were acquired by Dropbox. So my last year was at Dropbox and I was initially an individual contributor, just a sales senior salesperson.

I sold the only seven figure deals they had ever sold and then moved into leadership there. So I, I was able to really advance my career there quite a bit. But, it's, it takes time and, you know, I mean, that doesn't mean like my next role, my first VP of sales role at a different company, I learned more in that year than I learned in four and a half years because of where I was in the organization. And it's, It's a process. And I remember when I was hired onto a very stereotypical team of SAS sales dudes, you know, between 28 and 35 or something like that,

and I remember one time I was talking to a customer and we were selling APIs, which is, 50% of our customer base were engineers and developers. When I started, I didn't even know what an API was. I had no idea.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Can you just explain for our audience briefly?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah. So APIs are how we connect, technology is connected. And so without getting into a lot of the details of it. It was something that our engineers would buy, and we were selling e-signatures at HelloSign, and so companies could embed the signature process into their own website or application, which yeah, is, a little bit of a, a little bit different than your typical DocuSign type of process.

So anyway, so I was on the phone with an engineer and I called this customer. He was a CTO and very early stage and very young. And so he goes, Elizabeth, what up? And I was on the sales floor and I go, what up? And all of my colleagues just started laughing, fell to the floor, it was just outta context.

Yeah. So just being adaptable and I loved, I'm a mom. I love startups because I'm good at wearing a lot of hats and I like cross-functionally. I am a mom and, a lot of my colleagues that I've worked with over the last decade have been closer in age to my kids than they are to me.

Elizabeth Andrew: But I've learned a ton from them and I hope maybe they've learned a lot from me and, as long as you're open-minded and, eager to learn and, I think there's, I think it's fun.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. And obviously you've kept your sense of humor through all of this, which I think I remember myself 'cause I was also working in an industry where people were half my age and I felt like

sense of humor was very helpful. So you had moved up, you were VP of sales at three different organizations. You talked about moving from being an independent contributor to leadership and managing other people. Can you talk about when you started to think, maybe I wanna do something entrepreneurial? How did that happen and just what were the, what was the thought process?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, I've had an opportunity, like as you mentioned, to be a VP of sales at three different companies. I, it's been an incredible experience. I mean, not all of it's been easy. Some of it's been great. I've been through two acquisitions, some of 'em didn't work out, it's all part of the process, right?

I had worked for an AI company in 2022, and I just found myself, it was, I was working, gosh, I felt like I was working 80 hours a week and had three days off for in a year, and just there's a reason that sales, the compensation can be really great in, in sales, but it's also a lot of pressure. You know, especially in Silicon Valley, many of the CEOs, all three of the CEOs that I worked for were geniuses, coming out of MIT and Harvard and Princeton, and Berkeley. And many of them are technical and so it's a high pressure role and when I, it was the beginning of 2023, so it was just a year ago, and just felt like, I had left the AI company and felt like it's time for me to do my own thing. So I've been doing a little bit of consulting for CEOs and founders of early stage companies and doing some one-on-one coaching and getting a little bit back into public speaking. And then in March of last year, I was introduced to my co-founder at Sales Compete who was a CEO out of New York, he had lost his head of sales during the pandemic and ended up with the whole sales team reporting to him. And so he built our tool for himself. He still has another job, but he came looking for a co-founder, so we've been working on that as well. I'm doing both. I'm doing my consulting and we're bootstrapped for SalesCompete, which I like, 'cause we don't have the pressure of, VC funding to put unrealistic goals out.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So yeah, that, that's really critical in terms of setting your own pace and your timing and how you wanna run your priorities. Can we just, take like a sideline for a minute because I wanted to know if you could briefly tell people about your TEDx talk and how it happened and sort what that experience was like?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. So I, I can't remember exactly when I reached out to you, but I was so inspired by you and iRelaunch and the 40 Year Old Intern and all that stuff, when I was going through all this process. And so we connected and I can't, I think maybe first you, you were gonna be in San Francisco.

We met for lunch or coffee or something, but I, I was going through this process and, it's been baby steps, each step that I've made has advanced my career over the course of the last twenty-three year or 13 years, sorry. And I get people reaching out to me, how did you get back to work?

And so I do a fair amount of, I don't do what you do, but I am a huge fan and huge supporter of iRelaunch and so anytime I've had an opportunity to speak with you a couple of times at your conference at Stanford, and I've actually met some, I have some people that are in my network in tech that were at that conference.

That are become really good friends and heard me and in, in the little breakout session. And so I was, it was actually Hello Sign had just been acquired by Dropbox in 2019, and what happens after the acquisition, I was a sales leader, but we still had our VP of sales at that time. After the acquisition, he ended up leaving the company.

A lot of times people peel off after an acquisition. And so then I was really running the whole sales org reporting to our COO and, so there was a lot, it was the kind of the integration of two companies. But I had somebody reach out to me and say, listen, would you wanna do this TEDx talk? And the first thing that crossed my mind is I don't have the time.

But it was like, nobody will ever ask me to do that again. And it was in one month too. Usually it's like you have six months to prepare.

Carol Fishman Cohen: It took me four months to prepare like intensely.

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, I wish I had that time because I think it would've been a lot better. I would've loved to, I had one month to write it and prepare for it, and we were going through this implementation of two companies. It was, but it, my topic was "Let Them Back In". And it was really all about why companies should consider letting people returning to the workforce back in. And as you had mentioned earlier, when I moved to the west coast, Goldman Sachs had started the return ship program, and that was starting to take off in finance after the, the Great Recession took place, but that wasn't happening in tech at at the time.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, that was the second wave.

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah. Nobody, we had the ageism thing and nobody was talking about returning to work and coming back from a, It wasn't until you and I connected and you were coming out and you were doing your iRelaunch conference at Stanford that I think you, I think it was really, maybe you had worked with Google and a couple of other people on trying to get some of these returnships.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Google, I think they were a lead sponsor of one of our Stanford conferences.

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, and that was the first time tech was breaking into that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I think I've always attributed, so Wall Street Financial Services drove the first wave. I've thought because the companies are so old and they've had generation after generation of women mostly leave the workforce as they have been moving up and then suddenly they didn't have enough women in mid to senior level roles. Because the tech companies were so young, I think they were all, they had to go through one generational experience before they, they thought, this is our problem too. And then we saw the next wave be driven by the technology company. So at least those were the Silicon Valley tech technical companies.

We had legacy tech and we had companies that just, that have Technology at their core, like aerospace and defense. But I remember specifically that Silicon Valley piece thinking that's because these companies are so young, so you know, interesting. Okay, back to entrepreneurship, and then we're almost running outta time, so then I wanna ask you the question we ask all of our guests. But before we do that, can you just talk about any tips that you have for listeners who might be aspiring entrepreneurs? And that could be people who have already relaunched and are thinking of now doing something entrepreneurial, or people who are contemplating having, doing something entrepreneurial as the way that they relaunch?

Elizabeth Andrew: Well, I'm new to the founder journey and the entrepreneurial journey. It's just been over the last year and I love it. I don't see myself ever going back and working for somebody else and, you get the freedom, it's challenging in that, you have to rely on yourself.

And somebody named Morgan Ingram, who's a kind of a thought leader in the sales world, and his statement is, if nothing happens, nothing happens. You know, as an entrepreneur, you have to really be motivated to, to make it happen and to get things going every day.

I'd say one of the biggest challenges that I've found in that space too, is that particularly in technology now, there've been a lot of layoffs. And so there's a big rise in fractional roles. A lot of people are trying to break into being a fractional CMO or a fractional, so there is a lot more competition on that space.

But, I think if you can find your niche, it's a really great way to go.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And then look, the way you've approached it, you've built up all of these years of experience, and so you have the subject matter expertise and you've had the direct experience, so that's so powerful. And that's why, sometimes it depends what you've done before you relaunched, if you're a person who's in that kind of position or if you're doing something brand new. We, recently interviewed a relauncher who has become a very well known comedian. And so where she was always funny, but it was, she was never doing that before, and has really built up this a very big presence and big business from scratch. So we've had that kind of experience too. But Elizabeth, I wanna know if we can end by asking you this question that we ask all of our podcast guests, and that is, what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something we've already talked about today?

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Being a student of your profession. Follow people on LinkedIn, follow me on LinkedIn. I, you know, I, I try to post a lot of tips, around my career entry journey, but be a student of your profession and I would say one of the biggest things, Carol, that I am, you know, having worked for an AI company for a year, and it's interesting 'cause I left in December of 2022, that world has changed, because Chat GPT came out right after that. Right? It, I don't, I don't even recognize it anymore. And it's been a year. Right. Um, but my biggest piece of advice is learn how to use AI. And, you know, I, you know, one of the things that we would always talk about is that AI is not necessarily gonna replace people.

You know, I don't think you can replace the vulnerable, authentic human voice, right? But people who know how to use AI might replace people. So, you know, learn, learn, find ways to learn how to utilize AI and it can help in a job search too, so.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, for sure. We even have a special, section of our, iRelaunch Roadmap that Nikki Steingold, a senior person on our team developed that takes people step through by step using Chat CPT with prompts, and, it's very helpful in the job search, but also the way you're talking about it, Elizabeth, it's really a theme through our conversation today is that, you are a lifelong learner. You are a curious person. You're fearless about learning something new, and those qualities are essential for relaunchers. And you can, you don't have to be born that way. You can train yourself and learn to be that way. And it, and it really, it can be the foundation for success in so many different things, whether it's entrepreneurial or more traditional corporate relaunch.

Elizabeth Andrew: Unquestionably. Yep.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, thank you so much, Elizabeth. It's great having the conversation.

Elizabeth Andrew: Yeah, love seeing you as always. And hopefully we can meet in person again when one of us is on the other coast.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Absolutely. And thanks so much, Elizabeth. Thank you also to our audience for joining us and for listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice and success stories.

I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Be sure to visit to access our many return to work tools and resources, and to sign up for our mailing list so you can receive our weekly Return to Work Report featuring career re-entry jobs and programs. Thanks for joining us.

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