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EP 276: Resume advice for relaunchers, with iRelaunch resume expert Heidi Ravis

Heidi Ravis

Episode Description

Today we welcome Heidi Ravis, our iRelaunch recommended resume expert. Heidi has over 30 years experience working with relaunchers in a wide range of industries and situations. She's a relauncher herself and has a first-hand understanding of relauncher résumé challenges.

In this episode, we speak with Heidi about her career journey, and get her best resume recommendations. Listening to this episode is a must if you’re struggling with framing your resume for career reentry programs and traditional positions.

Read Transcript

Carol Fishman Cohen:

Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO, and Co-founder of I relaunch and your host. Before we get started, I want to remind our listeners who are actively relaunching to make sure to register. and upload your resume to our iRelaunch job board because this is where employers are going to be posting their career re entry jobs and programs and it's a great place for you to get recognized there as a relauncher. That's a place where we want you to have a career break.

Let's go on to our conversation for today. Today we welcome Heidi Ravis, who is our iRelaunch recommended resume expert. We're so excited to have her on board. She has 30 years, over 30 years, experience as a career counselor and has worked with many relaunchers in the past in a whole range of industries.

She's a relauncher herself and therefore understands the challenges of writing a resume that reflects potential value to an employer especially when we're looking as we all are, to return to the workplace after a hiatus. In this episode, we're going to speak with Heidi about her career journey, and we're also going to get some resume recommendations and talk about trends that she's seen over time.

Heidi, welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

Heidi Ravis: Thank you. It's good to be here.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, thank you for spending some time with us. Can you please start for us where we usually start, which is to tell us a bit about your professional background and a little bit about your career break and your relaunch.

Heidi Ravis: Sure. I started out as a graduate from college with a degree in psychology and really had no thought about going in the direction of career counseling or coaching.

I started out more in the sort of nonprofit social service world. I got my master's degree in psychology, counseling psychology, after a few years of work experience and worked full time up until my second child was born. And at that point, I made a decision to leave the full time work world, which was very hard, but yes, it was hard enough to juggle a full time job and one child and child care costs were a real factor in the decision, because it wasn't as if my employer was going to say, Oh, now you have two kids, great, we'll double your salary so you can have two kids in daycare. It just doesn't work that way. And I was very sad to lose, to leave my job. It was something that I really got a lot of satisfaction from.

I had worked my way up to a coordinator kind of role where I was basically running a vocational department at a program for adults with mental illness, and I supervised staff. I helped to develop new programs. It was very challenging, very stimulating. I had great coworkers. So it was a really tough decision to leave and it was the right decision for my family, but it was, while I enjoyed being home with my children, I really missed working, I missed talking to other adults, I missed using my brain in that way that you use at work that you don't with little children when you're going to the park and watching Sesame Street and all those things that you do. Not that that isn't fun, but I really missed using my brain. And so I would say after about a year of just being home full time, not just, it was a lot of work of being home full time. I really started to think about whether there were ways that I could at least dip my toe in the world of work, or I could do something to just to not, I didn't want to lose what I had gained in years.

So I started to reach out to wise figures in the career counseling arena who I had met and dealt with and asked their advice and they started connecting me with other people. So, through those conversations and those connections, a woman that I knew, a colleague, who had been, who had a practice a career counseling practice for a long time said, would you like to be one of my associates? You could come in and use the office, and she didn't work every day. So she said, on the days that I'm not there, would you like to come in and I can help to set up clients for you? So I did that a little bit. It was very part-time and, over time, I just built on that.

So I, I really, it wasn't a full relaunch. It was gradual. It wasn't a liftoff like a rocket. It was maybe more, I'm trying to think of a good comparison, that it wasn't a major relaunch, it was just a series of small steps. I was, I had gotten a mailing, this was after a few years of that, I had gotten a mailing that came through my professional association about a program that was recruiting career counselors, career professionals to work in this program, delivering distance services. And this was in the day before days before zoom and video counseling. It was all telephone counseling with some support online. And I thought, I'm not the most technically adept person, but I could probably learn and so it ended up being a really fortuitous move because I was on the cutting edge of distance counseling.

And so I've been, that was probably early two thousands.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So without knowing it, you were at the cutting edge.

Heidi Ravis: Exactly, so I started working remotely back then and that really, it became a skill that I could use, I have used in every job since then. I've had every gig that I've had since then has been remote and it really allowed me, I was very fortunate that I could as my children became more independent, I was able to take on more and more responsibility, take on additional gigs. And so I've been, I had no idea when I answered that ad that came 20 something years ago, that would be, that would determine the trajectory of my career.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right, let me ask you a few questions. I'm just taking some notes as you were speaking. first of all I just want to acknowledge that I love the baby step approach I think it's a great way to relaunch and I love the way you've illustrated how it works. So I think that's very valuable for our audience because sometimes people wonder, What does it mean to take a baby step, and, what's an example? So it's a great example. You mentioned a professional association that you first heard about this from, can you say what the professional association was? And were you, how did you think about keeping your membership there? Or what were you doing with them while you're on career break?

Heidi Ravis: This was, that's a great question. And I'm a big believer in professional associations, especially local ones where you can really get to know people. I had been a member of something called Career Development Specialist Network since the 1990s, that's, I'm showing my age here, I became a member when we were meeting in person, now we're all virtual, but, it was a small, local, New York based association, and I really was able to get to know people there, so actually, I think pretty much everything I've done since then, are almost everything I've done since that time has somehow involved people I met there either somebody there told me about a gig or a job that I might be good for, or when I heard about something I was able to go back to people I trusted in the group and say, Hey, have you heard of this organization? Do you know any of these people? So it was a small enough organization, even though it was in New York, it was small enough that I was really able to get to know people and those networking contacts I still have today. There are people who I trust so much and have just been such valued colleagues through the years. Yes, I'm a big believer in professional associations because really can, the, these are people who are maybe they may not be doing exactly the same thing as you, but they're in the same world that you're in and can really give you insight and you can find mentorship through them as well.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow, and important context that lead to actual job opportunities. So I just, underscoring that, that's another great point to underscore just in general for our listeners. But let's now get into some of the nitty gritty around resumes. We really wanna benefit from your experience and advice.

Can we just start out with your opinion on which resume style do you think is best? Chronological, where your experience is listed in reverse chronological order. Functional, where you take bits and pieces of your experience around certain functional areas and group them and feature them in that, one by one, function by function, or a hybrid, which is a combination of the two?

Heidi Ravis: Well, most employers and recruiters really favor the chronological, so I really try to adhere to that as much as possible, but I really like summaries and information at the beginning. Somebody once described it, one of my clients I was working with described it as clickbait.

So the information that you put at the beginning of the resume. From your headline to your, maybe some skill, a grouping of skills, a little summary of some of your achievements. Is what makes the reader want to keep reading. I think a chronological resume is great, but you can use the beginning to really draw their attention to the things that they should know most about.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. Well, that's very much in line with how we think about resumes at iRelaunch. We also have this experience with employers and recruiters that say, If we have to piece together someone's work history because it hasn't been all laid out for us in chronological order, we're gonna throw it out. There are too many resumes there to work that hard on a single one. I'm really in line there, and it's great to get that original thinking, the thoughts that we had originally, not that, that we were the first ones to think about it, but it was originally when we first started to think about resumes.

We've always heard this consistent advice. So to hear it from you now as an expert in 2023, is really validating and I think helpful for our audience too. So, we are asked often about how you handle having one resume. And we, I know many of our audience members know that people write customized resumes for certain specific jobs, but we also think about resumes in two categories when you are applying.

One is when you're applying for a career reentry program that requires a career break, and the other one is when you're applying more through a typical, mainstream recruiting channel that does not involve a career reentry program. Can you talk about having both of those types of resumes side by side and maybe, how recommendations for one or the other.

Heidi Ravis: Sure, I actually just last week was working with somebody on that very issue. The person was applying to a returnship program, but also applying for other kinds of more traditional roles. So we worked on one version that had a specific listing for, for the career break. Because I said, do you need to explain what you were doing during that time, because these programs want, specifically want, someone who's returning. So we found a way to talk about what the person was doing during that time and emphasized it. I think we did it in the summary at the beginning talked about what they did during that time, and then in the more traditional version, that there was a it was a I think a volunteer role a very involved volunteer role.

So in the returnship resume, we explicitly talked about how that was during a break and in the non returnship version, we just use that as the work experience for that comment. So that's really how we deal with. And it's interesting to say to people, you have to talk about the break because they only want people who have taken breaks.

So your break is a good thing here.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, we love that you can say that.

Heidi Ravis: Oh, it's wonderful.

Carol Fishman Cohen: It's the underpinning of everything that we do, that career breaks used to be the reason why people throw out resumes. Now you have to have one in order to apply for and participate in returnship and other career reentry programs.

Heidi Ravis: So it's so refreshing because people often feel so apologetic or embarrassed about their breaks. So it's really nice to be able to say that's it's a good thing right now to have that break.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Exactly, and then any thoughts on how, what you do in your LinkedIn profile if you have different resumes for, it could be career break or not career break, but it could also be customized for different types of roles or you're trying two different functions out.

What do you recommend people do on the LinkedIn profile?

Heidi Ravis: Well, that can be tricky, especially it's very hard when people are applying for different types of roles. And if they're working and they don't want their employer to know that they're looking, there's all different levels. But in this case of people who are looking for perhaps returnships and more traditional roles, that summary at the beginning, the about section again, is really useful.

And in LinkedIn, I look at resumes and LinkedIn as complimentary. They shouldn't be exactly the same. They both do different things. In LinkedIn, you have more space. You're not limited to a little paragraph or a few bullet points to, to tell your story. So that's a good place to give a narrative that kind of a little, it gives a little bit more detail and context to what you've done. It's tough, it's not an easy thing to do, but it's a place where you really can explain that break, what you learned, where that's led you now, without getting too confessional or deep about it. But you really can, I don't want to say spin it, because it sounds a little too, it sounds fake, but you really can make it a narrative about where you are, where you've been, where you're going.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, that, that makes total sense and great advice. No 2023 discussion is complete without introducing ChatGPT. And I want to know, it seems like it's all the rage now, we've been following Instagram, we have all sorts of career advisors giving advice on how to use ChatGPT in all aspects of the job search.

And I wanted to know if you've experimented with using ChatGPT to create or modify resumes, and if so, do you have any comments or recommendations on what kind of prompts people should be using..

Heidi Ravis: I have to confess, I was a little bit intimidated to try it and not an early adopter at all, because it's scary to think about AI doing your job for you.

But I've been to so many, any meeting or training involving career professionals these days, that's one of the main topics of conversation. So you really can't avoid it. And it would be irresponsible of me to avoid it. So I have played around with that a little bit, and it's pretty amazing. You can sit down, you can log, it's free.

You can go in and say, write a career counselor resume, and within a fraction of a second, it's spitting out a whole long, resume for me. But, I think the more specific you can be, the better. So what one thing you can do is if you see a job posting that interests you, you can pull up that job posting and write in as a command or as a prompt, write a resume for this job title.

And the more that you can give it specific parameters, the more accurate and targeted it will be. But, I think, as with anything involving AI, it still needs your touch to it. It needs, it can, it's really good for generating ideas, for giving language and keywords that are useful, but it still really needs editing and shaping to make it personal.

Otherwise, it can sound really generic or too specific to that job title. You don't want a recruiter to say, Oh, they just plugged those terms into Chat GPT and generated this. You don't want it to look like it was computer generated.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. You know, it's the same issue that all the professors have now about student essays and who wrote it and, and it's interesting because I'm sure there's going to be software or other tools that recruiters and employers have available that will be able to help them detect whether, and how much chat GPT was used or what, whatever.

I think, there's, there are already so many different applications that you could say are even beyond ChatGPT, now it's moving so fast, but I'm sure that's to come. First of all, I want to say thank you for acknowledging that it feels intimidating sometimes to just get in there and even experiment with ChatGPT.

It's like, How do you even start? Of course, you can put that into your, into a search, like how, where do I start with chat GPT? And it'll tell you where, what that website is and where to click on it and how to set up an account and then how to just experiment with it. And I wanted to know on that example that you gave about a, create a resume that is responding to this, career, was it a career counselor?

Heidi Ravis: Well, I just did the, my, the first one I did was just a generic writer resume for a career counselor. And then the second one, I found a specific job posting and said, write a resume for the the career, the associate director of career development at ACME university, whatever it might be.

And then, and I had the posting on the screen so I could pull from that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That was my question. Did you just do a full copy and paste and put it into ChatGPT and say, write a resume for this role? Or did you, so you were selecting excerpts from it? Yeah,

Heidi Ravis: I was able to, I gave as much specific information as possible. So I'm guessing that it pulls, it finds that, that posting and pulls from that. I think, I don't know what the algorithm is. But you think about what, I don't think any recruiter or employer wants something, once a resume that is just written by a computer because they want to know what you can do.

So it's great for getting the language and maybe finding a way to express something or generating ideas. But it's not, if there's no personalization to it, if there's no, nothing of you in it, I think a recruiter will be able to see that it's your, if you're just connecting dots, there's no value there, it's your, it needs your perspective and your ability to direct the reader to what is most important and what's most salient in your background.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, I'm just thinking through that a little bit because writers will say I've been reading a lot about Chat GPT in different fields and writers will say it's a godsend for writers block so it'd be the same thing as like, I just don't even know where to start on this resume, it's a way to get, first I was going to say a first draft, but I'm thinking from what you're describing is, are the pitfalls, it's not really a first draft. It's a jumping off point that can give you, it'll spur, it'll make your mind think of, Oh yeah, and then it'll allow you to start writing without hesitation.

Heidi Ravis: And somebody actually, another career professional I know said it's really good for cover letters because everybody hates writing cover letters.

That's everybody finds that everyone I've ever spoken to finds that to be even harder than writing a resume, and I still think they're really important. So somebody I know said, use it for writing a cover letter, you can tweak parts of it. But if, rather than getting stuck trying to write a cover letter, lean more heavily on, on ChatGPT for generating the cover letter and rearrange it because that if you're going to get stuck writing it, why not use ChatGPT for that? And then you can tweak it a little bit later. Whereas for the resume, you may want to take a little bit more time with, with making it more specific.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. Thank you for diving into that brand new tool that we all have and I'm, there's much more to come there and that's it's always going to be changing and we'll always be updating our commentary on it. I know both of us, the more we research it and discover new things and find out its uses. So that's something we all, and we'll try to keep you posted on that. I'm talking to our audience, all of you as best we can at iRelaunch.

Heidi, I want to ask you, because we have listeners on our podcast who are in all stages of relaunching their career and some of our listeners are very far along in the process and they are looking for more specific, detailed advice like we were just talking about with a chat GPT, and others are at the beginning of the process and less familiar with the process itself.

So I wanted to know if you can explain one of the fundamentals of recruiting when you hear these this initial ATS. And I want to know if you can explain to our audience what is an ATS and can you give some guidelines around how to handle your resume when you're submitting to one.

Heidi Ravis: Sure, an ATS is an automatic tracking system and it's really what recruiters will generally say is that it's really just to screen, to do an initial screening so that the recruiter doesn't have to go through every single resume personally and read every line, that it's looking for specific keywords, specific points to make sure that the person is actually applying for the right kind of role. In the past, I think people would, there were all there was all kinds of advice about, oh if you have a spelling error if your comma is in the wrong place it's gonna it's gonna make your just your resume disappear into a black hole and nobody's ever going to see it again, or if you format it this way. But I think the systems have come a long way, so they really are more sophisticated now and they can handle different kinds of formats, different types of, different kinds of templates, things like that.

So there's really, I don't think, any one format that's best for NATS, I think that's the prevailing wisdom that I've been able to sense this. But that said, I still, my preference is still for something that's very straightforward, that doesn't have a ton of bells and whistles and a ton of, when for a while, the trend was towards lots of little, little, tables and things like that in the resume, most recruiters do still have a preference for more straightforward, highlight oriented, and of course you always want to make sure that you proofread your resume multiple times because nobody wants to see something with spelling errors or any kind of mistakes in it. So I think ATSs are pretty sophisticated and able to handle different formats now.

Carol Fishman Cohen: All right, so just a couple follow ups there, technical questions. So I, we've heard and this was in the past, that if you don't submit a PDF format, you, because it won't be able to read it, you have to submit a Word doc, but if you submit a Word doc, it's going to go in and mess up all the formatting. Are you saying now that the ATSs are much more sophisticated, that you could submit either one and it's fine or do you have a recommendation on that?

Heidi Ravis: I like PDFs just because they do preserve the formatting. Sometimes formatting gets a little bit wonky if you're using a Word doc. I've even written resumes for people and sent them to that to them. And maybe the person I use a, I have a PC, maybe the person has a Mac, and the version of Word on the Mac maybe does something.

They're gremlins, I don't know. I think, a lot of the time I think a P, if it allows for a PDF, I think a PDF is usually preferred. Because it preserves the formatting.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay, that's helpful. And then one other detail. What about hyperlinks? Do you recommend that people embed a hyperlink, which you can embed even in a PDF, that links to, I don't know, an article that they wrote or something else, I don't know, their LinkedIn profile?

Is that A, not recommended, and B, do they not even work when they go through these systems?

Heidi Ravis: That's a good question. I think usually they do work and it can't hurt because if they can't get through, get to them through a hyperlink, they can always copy and paste the link. If you have, for example, if you have a portfolio or a website, it's always a good idea to include it. And worst comes to worst, they can copy and paste it to look.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Good point. It's there if they want to work a little harder to actually investigate it. And we do tell people, as you're saying, if there's a portfolio or also we tell people who are working on updating technical skills to have a GitHub portfolio of their technical projects that they're working on, that of course would be a link.

You wouldn't include pieces of that in the resume itself. So, thank you for pointing that out. One other area, Heidi, that we're seeing is there's some move to video screening as a first step, with a number of our employers now. And we have a separate podcast on that and advice on where to practice, in order to get familiar with these screening tools that involve you having to record a video of yourself or answer questions on video. Is there anything about video that you're seeing in terms of resumes or are there any new formats of resumes that people need to be aware of or that you actually would recommend?

Heidi Ravis: Not new formats so much. I've seen things about video resumes and I've seen guides to doing them. And some people say, Oh, you should definitely do one. But I think the reality is a lot of people just aren't comfortable with it. And, if it's something that's not comfortable for you and it's not required, then why make yourself crazy trying to work on it? But I think they're also, I think they are being used all the one way video interviews are being used a lot in screening for first interviews for screenings.

And so it's always a good idea to practice, even if you're just using, you're the video, the camera on your phone or on your computer. It's good to be brave and practice. There are some tools out there. I don't know of any free ones to help you practice for a video interview.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I think HireVue, H I R E V U E, at least they used to have a tab on there or some sort of portal where I thought you were able to practice, but it either may not be there anymore, or, I don't know, I don't think they make you pay for it, but it's possible that they took it down.

I haven't checked out recently. But that's a potential, resource people can check out. And I feel like I need to interject here 'cause I've been thinking about this a few times during our conversation and I want to point out, of course, for everyone, how we talk about your resume can be fabulous, but it is really that personal handoff or someone handing off your resume to someone else that they know, or a friend of a friend that is going to get your resume moving to the top of the pile or to some special attention. So just wanted to put that into the mix to make sure that we're underscoring that, that part of the job.

Heidi Ravis: Absolutely.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. So Heidi, can you take us through what prospective clients can expect from working with you? And I just want to add that Heidi is our iRelaunch recommended resume expert, so if you go to iRelaunch. com and you look under the relauncher tab at the top, you're going to see different options and one of them is on resumes and individual coaching. And you can click through there and then you'll see a page, and then from there you could get into Heidi's actual website. But, we encourage you to take a look at that through and go through the iRelaunch website to get there because there's additional information. So let's see, let's say I, I decided I wanted to engage with you, what kind of process do you take people through?

Heidi Ravis: What I'll usually do once I hear from somebody is I'll reach out right away and offer them a free 10 minute consultation. I find that works really well because then either through Zoom or telephone, and then that allows us to, to figure out what their needs are, what their budget is, and how that fits together. The person may just want somebody to look over their resume to see how it works for a returnship. So in that case, we might either schedule a longer conversation to do that together, or the person may just say, you know what, I trust you, could you just go through it and give me feedback?

In which case I would probably go through it and mark it up and track changes and send a feedback email, and then give the person an option to get back to me. In other cases, the person might say, I've been out of the work world for years, for 15 years, raising my children and I have nothing, I haven't written a resume in all that time, I've done volunteer work, but I really want somebody to partner with me to write it, in which case that's a different process.

So we would probably set up, I might send them a worksheet to record the information about what they've done so that I can do a basic outline and format it for them. And sometimes just seeing that, seeing it on paper, seeing what it's going to look like, builds a lot of confidence for the person. And then we would work together to populate that.

So we might, a lot of the time people will say, Oh, I've volunteered, I've been a PTA mom and a class parent. I'll say, but what did you do, tell me what you did, and it turns out they ran every large scale event. They raised thousands of dollars to hire staff in the school, maybe they, they planned a fair that involved vendors.

So we really talk about, there's, there are a lot of different kinds of PTA moms. Let's talk about what kind of PTA mom you were. What did that mean? What did you do? And generally there's a lot of information that comes out when they're saying, I was just a mom. I was just a volunteer.

That's not, just isn't the word it just is limiting. So in those cases, it might be a few different calls with some where I'm, we're talking through it and then I put it together for them. And then we edit it together or whatever. So really it's, it could be any, anything from I'll just review it for you and send you feedback to let's have a few calls and really put together something from scratch.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right, right. I, you know, of course we always say at iRelaunch everyone's situation is unique, no two situations are alike. So I can see that, of course, it's going to get reflected in the resume. And I love how you said when you put the outline of it together, especially with someone who really hasn't, has been out of the workforce for a long time, for whatever reason, and just to underscore, it could be elder care, it could be your own health issue.

It could be your trailing spouse or partner with a partner, with an overseas assignment, you're a military spouse, a whole range of reasons for your career break. But I just want to emphasize that once you put your story together, especially for someone who has taken a long career break, and just to emphasize, it could be for a whole range of reasons, it could be elder care. It could be your own health issue. It could be you're a military spouse or you're a trailing spouse or partner with someone with an overseas assignment. so whole range of reasons. But if you've been away from the workforce for a long time, and then you and Heidi are working together and you put this outline of your resume together, all of a sudden you said, it makes you feel more confident. And that is all, now the narrative, you see the progression and that there's something really substantive there. And I just love the idea that when as part of that process, people actually gain confidence.

Heidi Ravis: Yes, and narrative is so important. I'm a bookworm. I've always loved reading and so I think I've always taken that into my work is wanting to understand somebody's story. What makes them unique? What makes, because you're not just a sum total of your jobs, it's what you bring to them and what you're good at and what you care about and what makes you shine.

So I think that narrative and understanding that narrative and helping the person, the candidate understand, wait, yeah, that's my story, and it's a good story, it's a powerful story, really does help to prepare them for the whole process and does start to build the confidence that maybe they're lacking.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And that also comes around to that point you're making about, you don't get that from ChatGPT. ChatGPT can help you along the way, but the nuances and this narrative and the things that relate to you very specifically as an individual, that's something that when you're interacting with a resume expert, when you're acting, interacting with someone like you, Heidi, then you are going to have a completely different interaction than if it's ChatGPT related.

Heidi Ravis: So definitely ChatGPT doesn't care about you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, exactly. So it's so important to have this combination, I just wanted to underscore that. So Heidi, I wanted to go to our final question. We're running out of time here and ask you the question that we ask all of our podcast guests. And that is, what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about today.

Heidi Ravis: I think don't sell yourself short. I think that's in, in anything, in the job search, everybody has a story to tell and everybody has worth. We're not just the sum total of our job experiences. We animate them. And I think to recognize that you have something unique to offer and that somebody will want what you have to offer is so important. It doesn't matter, don't compare yourself to other people, focus on what makes you unique and what makes you of value to an employer. And it will, I think that the confidence is really the most important piece of the process.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, I love that. And I love the, the word animate. I think that's such a, that's such a great way to talk about how you translate your story as a person onto the page, and I like that you use that. I haven't heard that word in connection with this, so I'm going to have to remember that. Heidi, thank you so much for joining us today.

Heidi Ravis: Thank you. It's been a real pleasure to talk to you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, for me too. Thanks for listening to iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories.

I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO and co founder of iRelaunch and your host. I want to remind our listeners to go to iRelaunch. com for all the tools and resources. That you need for your relaunch. Thank you so much for joining us.

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