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EP 261: Redefining Career Paths in Terms of Life Stage, not Age, with Susan Golden

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Episode Description

Susan Golden is the director of DCIX at the Stanford Distinguished Careers Institute (DCI), and a lecturer and adjunct professor at Stanford University. She leads the DCIX Longevity Innovation Special Interest Group focused on creating innovations and new business opportunities for longevity and healthy aging, and she serves as a lead mentor to the Techstars Future of Longevity Accelerator. Susan is also the author of Stage Not Age, How to Understand and Serve People Over 60, which focuses on the business opportunities and strategies to support longevity and healthy aging using life stage instead of a person's age. Susan co-developed a course offered at the Stanford Graduate School of Business on Longevity, for which a case study on iRelaunch was written. Susan is a relauncher, having taken a past career break of 15 years. Her pre-career break career was in venture capital. Listen to our wide ranging conversation on Susan's career path, her work as a longevity expert, and what living a longer life means for career progression and taking career breaks.

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Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Before we get started, I want to remind our listeners who are actively relaunching to make sure to register on the iRelaunch Job Board, because that is where employers are coming specifically to re recruit and hire people who have career breaks and are returning, so make sure you take a look at that on iRelaunch.com.


All right, onto our conversation today. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Susan Golden, a relauncher who is now the director of DCIX at the Stanford Distinguished Careers Institute, and an adjunct professor. She leads the DCIX Longevity Innovation Special Interest Group focused on creating innovations and new business opportunities for longevity and healthy aging, and she serves as a lead mentor to the Techstars Future of Longevity Accelerator.

Susan is also the author of Stage Not Age, How to Understand and Serve People Over 60, which focuses on the business opportunities and strategies to support longevity and healthy aging using stage and not a person's age. In today's episode, we're going to speak with Susan about her relaunch and her work, reducing the stigma about older workers.

Susan, welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

Susan Golden: Thank you Carol so much for having me today. I'm really excited to be.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, we're thrilled to have you and thank you for spending the time. Can you start by telling our audience a little bit about your background, your career path, what you did before your career break, and then what prompted you to step away from the workforce?

Susan Golden: I will. So the last position I had before I took my career break, I was a partner in a venture capital firm, Schroeder Ventures. I ran the west coast office. There were offices in New York where I started out as well as in London. Prior to that, I had worked at Genentech, a biotechnology company. I started there when it was still relatively small.

Now it's incredibly large and successful and exciting. And prior to that I was in academia. I was, an assistant professor at a medical school teaching epidemiology and public health. I have a doctorate in public health. And so when I took my career break, it was initially to take care of, I had just had a baby, my second one, and wanted to spend more time with my children than I was able to.

Venture capital at that time involved an awful lot of travel. Wasn't able to do that during my pregnancy for different reasons and thought, let me just enjoy the, this gift that I have of spending time with my young children. And initially I thought it would be like many women do for a few years till the youngest goes off to school.

But during that time I had a widowed elderly mother who started declining. I had once taken a three week, unpaid leave of absence from my venture firm right before my wedding when my mother had quadruple bypass surgery. And I flew out to California to take care of her for a few weeks, and I thought, she's declining.

I really wanna spend the time helping to care for her. And unbeknownst to me, my mother was gonna have lifespan but not healthspan, which means she was in and out of the hospital lots of times, up to 20 times in the last few years of her life. But she lived to 91. So the gift was that we had a lot of time with her and I had a lot of time with her, and she got to know my children.

But after that ended, I really reflected on, wow, I speak English, I have a doctorate in healthcare from Harvard University, and I could not navigate the US healthcare system for my mother. And it's like that for me. What's it like for other people? And that got me really motivated. I wanted to fix this for families in the US and that led to a number of things that became part of my relaunch.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Okay. So quite a journey. And, I wanted to ask you, how did you know when it was the right time to relaunch, but it sounds like there was a gradual process that went on there. And I wanna know if you could maybe walk us through that when you had that realization about wanting to fix the system or access until you would actually characterize that it was, that you had relaunched. What, like what was happening there?

Susan Golden: So after my mother passed, and my youngest was in high school, I started taking a number of steps to think about what could I do next? How could I, that was a passion project. How could I fix the elder care system? Could I go back to venture capital? Everybody said in Silicon Valley you're gonna be considered too old, 'cause in Silicon Valley you're old at 40. And they said it's not gonna happen. And so what I started doing was taking, attending conferences that I hadn't had the time to attend in the years that I was caregiving.

I never called myself a caregiver. I was being a daughter or a mother. But now I call it the caregiving stage, which we can talk about later. And I started going to conferences. And I joined a group in, in Silicon Valley called Silicon Valley Social Venture Fund, which was started by Laura Arrillaga- Andreessen. And it's a great concept. It's the venture capital approach to philanthropy, and it's not a huge philanthropy. Individually, everybody puts in a small amount of money and we collectively invest it in either nonprofits or for-profits, that are, have a social impact mission. And there I learned so much ''cause it was affiliated with Stanford and they had amazing guest speakers and my mind was just firing up like, yes, this combines a lot of, I love VC I love social impact and I love learning.

And it was just at that time when I was in that program and I became a partner there, they called it a partnership and was part of it for three years while my youngest was still in school, so I wanted to be around to enjoy all that. And what happened was I heard about a new program that was starting at Stanford called The Distinguished Careers Institute, and the program was started by the former Dean of the Medical School, Phil Pizo, as he was finishing his 12 years of being a dean, thinking about what did he wanna do next? And he thought about getting a PhD in history, which was one of his passions. And he thought, well, if I'm thinking about what to do next, there must be other people at my stage and age of life who were thinking about what to do next.

And so he started this program and I had this good fortune to be accepted in to the second class. And in this program you can take any course anywhere at Stanford University and you don't have to take the exams. So how fun is that? Going back to college, basically, and grad school, but just there to learn. And it was the most amazing, extraordinary, lifelong learning experience, and I highly recommend to everybody listening that they find some program like that. There are many now that have been modeled off of the DCI program at Stanford. Harvard started the first one called Advanced Leadership Institute, and there are now many programs in many universities. Some are three months long.

Some are hybrid, some are all virtual, where you are part of a community of learners, your stage, not necessarily your age, and that was, inspired some of the work I'm doing now. Because I looked around in my group and people were anywhere between 50 to 75, 80, but we were all in the same stage of life, rethinking what we wanted to do, relaunching, redefining our purposes, and it was the most invigorating concept of being on campus with younger students, older students, and in the classroom. Stanford is very project oriented, so you had to interact with the students and I learned as much from them as they learned from me. And, through that, I started a couple of mentoring initiatives for the DCI program.

So it's just been a catalyst for growth and engagement. And I call it a drug because it does reset who you are. You're not defined by your age, but what stage of life. And these students and I were at the very same stage, and my youngest daughter was in college as a freshman when I went off to be a freshman at Stanford the first quarter.

And we would have many wonderful conversations about me complaining how much homework I had, how much reading. And she would say to me, Mom, don't you know, nobody does all the reading. And I said, But I wanna do all the reading. And it was those kind of dialogues that went on that was just priceless between us.

And then I got to know so many of the students, which was, to this day the gift of being at the DCI program.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, there's a lot there. I love this concept. I know this will get more into this, but this idea of stage that, that you're, they're all people are this wide range of ages, but they're all the same stage. And I know that a lot of your work has expanded based on that concept. But what year was this?

Susan Golden: 2016.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That, that you started the DCI program? DCI program. Okay. Got it. So what happens, so you're in the course, you're also in this cohort and you're having conversations and everyone is brainstorming or what's the structure around figuring out your next step?

Susan Golden: So you take you at the DCI program, you can take as many courses as you want. I traditionally took three to four a quarter. Some people in my program were taking 10. They were just, it was like being a kid in a candy store. And then they were a colloquium that they're special to the DCI fellows.

So you get to know amazing faculty. But one day I sent out an email to my cohort. I got very excited about the concept of longevity, which is a core component of the concept of the DCI program, you're living longer. We should ma we should talk about that. People are having lifespan increase as my mother did.

She lived to be 91. She just didn't have health span. But children born today, my children should expect to live to 100. Any of us who reached 65 in good health without serious illness have today have more than a 50% chance living into their nineties. So this is a game changer. When I was a teenager, my father died, but his average life expectancy was 64 and he died at 64.

That's why we have Medicare and social security all tied around 65 because that was life expectancy. What I didn't know and what I learned at Stanford, which was extraordinary, is there's this gift most people have gonna have an extra 30 years of lifespan, and there's a whole industry trying to extend it well past 100 to 125, to 150. But what I got excited about is how, what are gonna be all the innovations that are gonna be needed to support healthy aging and longevity? Like I look back at my experience with my mother, I wish I would've known what I know today to help support her caregiving needs.

I could have done so many things differently. And then I found out this is now considered an industry. The longevity economy is a concept that is valued today at 8.6 trillion in the US alone, growing to 22 trillion. And it's happening worldwide. People are living longer. You could see it in France as they're trying to increase the retirement age.

We have a very different paradigm now than what we used to understand, which was you learn, then you earn, and then you retire. And retirement was set at 60 to 65 because of life expectancy. Well, you and I shouldn't retire if you have another 30 years to go, you might wanna do something different.

You might wanna transition out of the work that you had done, or you had a career break and you wanna come back and relaunch. And I think career breaks are gonna become extremely common in the 100 year life. Everybody is gonna take a career break. Everybody's gonna take it either for rejuvenation, for repurposing, for caregiving, and you're gonna need help, like what iRelaunch offers in helping you transition. I was fortunate enough to take the iRelaunch program when I was doing my fellowship years, and it was instrumental because it gave me the concept of having a returnship, try something out that you might wanna do. So the summer of my fellowship year, there wasn't that much offering in summer school. I wanted to do, I wanted to try something out. And so I joined an organization called Aging 2.0 that was doing a lot of activity around innovations for aging and got a sense that, wow, this is a, there's conferences on this subject, there's an industry on it.

And so I sent out an email one day to, as I started to say to my cohort, and say anybody wanna meet for breakfast and talk about innovations for longevity? And over half my class showed up. And we started looking around the table and we had doctors and lawyers and VC, and we all had been through some sort of caregiving experience that we felt very sad about, that we just didn't know what we were doing yet. We were capable. And we've wanted to create innovations for caregiving. We wanted to create innovations for education and financial planning, and almost every consumer facing industry is gonna be impacted by longevity, the concept that people are living much longer lives, and how do we support health span and healthy aging?

And that just blossomed into all sorts of other things that I could not have anticipated. That I am thrilled to be part of, and that just feels so purposeful at this stage of my life.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. You know, it reminds me of when Cheryl Sandberg said she used to have a five year plan all the time, and then when she didn't have one is when she ended up going to work for Google.

And it sounded because the internet hadn't even been in, I don't wanna say maybe invented, but like certainly, what it was a few years after she started, and I'm almost hearing that from you. It's like this is a brand new area. It's, and you got introduced to it without even knowing it existed, and now it's central to, to what you're doing.

Susan Golden: And it's still a nascent industry. There are many companies that I'm involved with that are addressing the needs of an, of longevity and healthy aging and caregiving, but I didn't realize how it's blossomed just in, I look back now, in the last five years alone, this has really grown. I'm involved with accelerators now, that focus solely on innovations for caregiving, supported by Techstars and Pivotal Ventures.I'm involved in a number of other mentoring initiatives for innovation groups at Stanford that accelerators, Cardinal Ventures and many others, the Stanford Center on Longevity has an annual design challenge and have been involved in mentoring and judging those groups.

It's a blossoming industry. I really encourage people who are what I wanna call sidepreneurs or olderpreneurs, these are some new terms that are out there, who are thinking about what to do next. Think about innovations to support healthy aging and longevity. You will know it better than anybody what the needs are and join an an accelerator or find a young person to partner with if you're older. But mixed generation teams are gonna do so much better going forward. And that's what we do at Stanford now. We have mixed generations teams working on innovations, which is really exciting.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, I, I have to say thanks to you I participated in a panel that you moderated at the Century Summit, that was run at Stanford.

It's a whole conference around the hundred year life, and those conversations that we were having started a lot of my thought process about the 60 year career, and as you're saying, unlikely you're gonna work 60 years without stopping. So career breaks are gonna be part of that. And is there ultimately going to be a recommended number of career breaks or how long you take them. And, some of them are, you take them just because of your life stage for childcare, elder care, or maybe it's your own health issue. Sometimes it's other factors. Maybe you're a trailing spouse or partner with someone with an overseas assignment, or, maybe you were in the military yourself and you're taking career break after that.

Both types of reasons in there. But this idea that the employers that have formal career reentry programs and who have perfected their model are going to be in the best position as people are coming in and out of organizations, hopefully in and out of their organization, if they are supporting people in a constructive way as they make these transitions.

So, you can just let your mind run wild over that. But I think where you are right now is a very thought provoking area.

Susan Golden: And we don't know how many career breaks, there's no formula to it yet cuz we haven't really experienced this. But for the first time, career breaks are being valued and acknowledged.

And I'm very excited to share with your audience that this past year, as you well know and you wrote about this, LinkedIn now enables you on your career profile to indicate career break. And you can designate whether it was for rejuvenation, learning or caregiving. And that values you even when you're on career break, you don't lose your talent and your skills.

You may not be as current on some of you know the latest information or technology, but you're capable. And you're valued for what you're doing in your caregiving years or in your rejuvenation years. And then you're, you come back and you fulfill a need In these workforces. We have shortages.

And one of the great things that did come out of covid is the word flexibility. Everybody wanted flexibility in their work life integration. And that's true if you're younger, if you're older, and an older workforce who has maybe taken a career break comes back, can fulfill and partner with companies to meet their needs and they have historical memory, institutional knowledge, it, they can be very much value add. What we need to do is address the myths about older workers and ageism that is out there. I've written about this, published an article in it about it last year in HBR as well. But it, we can fix that I think with modeling all the wonderful people who are in their eighties and nineties contributing further.

In fact, I called the last chapter of my book Further Hood, because it's not the end, we're not all just in our third act and that's it. We could have fourths and fifths and sixth and, I'm always excited to tell that the person who started DCI when he moved on to it yet another career from having been dean of the medical school, then director for 12 years of the DCI program, he decided to start a whole new career at age 77.

And that's exciting to watch. Watching Anthony Fauci start saying I'm not retiring. He's going on to ano another stage. And one of my most exciting examples is Serena Williams. She said, I'm not retiring, I'm evolving. So she created a new stage, the evolution stage and everybody is gonna go through that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. Susan, I wanna get back to your actual relaunch. So you went through this program, during that you put out that email and half the people showed up to the conversation about innovations and longevity. What happened, like how did you actually relaunch your career into a professional or paid role?

Susan Golden: Yeah, so I, a lot of my, the people in my cohort stayed on at Stanford as what they called the continuing fellow to take more courses, but I wanted to start doing. You can take courses forever and they're wonderful and, make sure you have brain candy every day.

But, the Center on Longevity was looking at and doing a ton of research about how do you plan for a hundred year life? And I kept thinking, why isn't the innovation in investment community investing in this? And I started talking to my VC friends and very few knew about longevity as a business opportunity, as an innovation opportunity.

They all thought about, oh, the senior housing and fall prevention and medication management, and I'm not interested in that. And I said, no, no, no, no. Not everybody's gonna be frail, elderly, and declining the minute they hit 65. People need to plan for a hundred year life, and then they're gonna need innovations to support that from a fit fitness and wellness perspective, from a financial perspective. You're not gonna have enough money if you retire at 65, if you're gonna live to a hundred in a typical career, and on and on and on. And so I was so fortunate, the Center on Longevity invited me to be a visiting scholar, and I was there, where I started developing innovation programs in concert with the DCI program that I had been part of, and then, came up with the idea that we really need to be teaching business school students about this because they're the future innovators, they're the future CEOs of companies that are gonna have a five generation workforce. And so I helped to co-develop a new course that's now offered at the business school at Stanford.

We're in our fourth year of teaching it. It's been oversubscribed every year and we did profile cases including iRelaunch, and we were so glad you joined us. And we profiled different segments, of the financial industry in the corporate industry of Merrill Lynch who redesigned their entire wealth management program around the fact that people are gonna live 100 year lives. We profile a company called Cake as an example of end of life planning and all the things you need to do, and many other companies. And then I, work on the innovation side and getting the students involved in developing ideas for new products and services and intergenerational engagement.

So it's a very robust field. And out came the invitation from Harvard Business Review Press if I would write a book on how companies are rethinking their longevity strategy basically, and what's new in the innovation side of this, which is just exploding right now. Which I'm happy to see. But, no, we no shortage. We need more. 10,000 people are turning 65 every day and living much longer lives, and they're gonna need support for transition for jobs, financial planning, but they're gonna need that before that too. So this is the need for multi-stage products, multi-generational products that will support people in a hundred year life. And I can't think of anything more purposeful and more fascinating than helping people age well, but then also helping care well for the people we love at the stage that they will need caregiving. And as Rosalyn Carter is often quote to say everybody will be one, one of four kinds of caregivers: and they'll either be a caregiver to somebody, are a caregiver to somebody, will need caregiving, at some point we're all gonna be involved in it. And we do have a broken caregiving system in the US which is what prompted my initial passion. So I'm really proud to say I work with the Techstars Future of Longevity Accelerator and Pivotal Ventures on their caregiving initiatives, which is really purpose.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I love hearing all of this. It's so inspiring and interesting. Susan, let's talk about your book. Can you, so you were asked to write this book, by Harvard Business Review, or Harvard Business Publishing. Tell us when it came out, and a little bit about it, and maybe a little bit about the writing process.

Susan Golden: Okay. The book was published last June by Harvard Business Review Press. I had published an article with Laura Carsons in, 2018 or 19, I forget now, on profiling how Merrill Lynch had looked at their longevity strategy and that they set, reset the life priorities for wealth management clients. And to me that seemed like, yeah they're looking at stages that people are in. Are you an empty nester? Is this, are you trying to save for a home? You know, different stages. And I started looking at other companies and, the most successful companies that I saw in this area were looking at not the age of their customer, they weren't calling them elderly or seniors or defining them, everybody as the same, that the minute you turn 60 or 65, you're all the same. You're all retirees. You're about to be frail, elderly, and declining. But they were looking at what were their needs at that stage. And, fitness and wellness companies were realizing that people across the lifespan were going to need that training for strength, balance, and all, and core fitness. And then there was marketing in different ways. And I looked that company Cake, which we now brought into the course as a case, how they were helping people plan for advanced care and whether or not they had a serious illness, it might be pre-planning all the trusts and wills and documents you're gonna need. Very few people have advanced directives. Very few people have thought about what kind of care they're gonna want as an area. And then I looked at the whole housing industry. 90% of people do not wanna go to senior communities, which is was the thing you did at, maybe just 10, 15 years ago.

Most people want to, what they call age in place, many call it thriving in place. They don't wanna be in an age segregated communities, but they may need support, they may need community. So think about every single field needs to rethink, how are they gonna develop a longevity strategy? And that's what the book is about.

How do you look at people by what stage they are, but not what age and how do you market to them successfully? And how do you build products and services that meet their needs at that stage? And it could be multi-generations at the same stage, lifelong learning. You can do that in your twenties, you can do that in your fifties. You can do it again in your eighties. And so how do you engage with these life long learning programs? How do you engage with a company like iRelaunch at different points of your life when you're in transition? And that's what the book covers. It's trying to dispel the myth of treating everybody over 60 as the same, in one bucket and understanding where they are. And I call that the most, I think the most interesting stage that people are in are, is what I call the Renaissance stage. That's what I'm in. That's what everybody in the DCI program was in, and it's, and it can span a 30 year timeframe. But instead of thinking of yourself as a retiree, think of yourself that you're in your renaissance years and you can rethink and, what and redefine your life priorities and be excited about this stage of life. You have to very much consider your health span and prioritize that. But it's such an exciting time Instead of it being something of a declining period of your life.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Susan, you're talking about so many different things that you're doing right now. How do you characterize that and how do you manage that? And maybe just go through these different roles and tell us how you, how you look at it.

Susan Golden: Most people I know at this stage of life that I'm in have a portfolio. And their portfolio can be a number of different activities that they consider part of their career, and some of it may be some of their volunteer commitments and passion projects.

And, and in my portfolio, there's always making time for my family, what we call our Core Five, Core Four, we're about to get a new member. So we are calling ourselves Fab Five, Our core group in our family for in our text. But, you always have to make that an important part of your life.

But I do a couple of different things, but many people post DCI and in this stage of life are doing, I'm doing some teaching, I'm doing some writing, I'm running the innovation impact initiatives for the DCIX program, I mentor, but none of them are full-time. And that's the key. And that's what I wanted.

And so it gives you some flexibility to do different things. And as new opportunities come along, you can fit them in. And, it's really an exciting time. There, there is, I don't feel like in a retiree, I don't feel elderly. I don't feel senior. I feel like I'm having some of the, best, most exciting periods of my life going on right now.

Very fulfilling. And I love, I really love working with the students. I think that's one of the most fulfilling things. Seeing them come up to me and say, you've changed my life, notes I get, seeing companies that have come out of the course, and then the letters I'm getting from the book have really been really heartwarming.

Not only just from the corporate side, things like I never thought about, I need a longevity strategy for my workforce and for our products, but individuals who are reading it saying, I just retired. I didn't know what to do. And your book has given me a way to rethink my own personal longevity strategy.

So that's been really exciting to see.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, I have to thank you because I'm a personal beneficiary of the work that you're doing at Stanford, and we, as you mentioned, there's a case study about iRelaunch that's part of the longevity course, and I got to go in and speak to the classroom.

I know exactly what you're talking about in terms of giving your message and talking to a classroom full of young people. I don't know, maybe I should say a different what stage that they're at, and not characterize them age-wise, but students, current students and have those conversations with them afterward.

And it, it was really gratifying. I just got a little bit of a taste of what you're talking about, what you do.

Susan Golden: And our challenge in the course, there's so much to cover now. We can't cover it all, We're, you know this, it's just changing all the time. This is a nascent industry. It's a very exciting industry.

Most investors haven't caught on. It's growing. They're now a few dedicated venture funds that are solely focused on innovations for longevity and caregiving and older adults. And that's really exciting to see. And bringing in mixed stage innovation teams is really exciting to see as well.

So we're in a new period.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, well, I can see you're really, you're helping to define or you're having a key role in defining this space, creating the new language that people are using when they're having these conversations.

Susan Golden: And we don't have the right language. I made up a lot of words in the book and I call it out.

I'm making them up because we don't have the right language, we don't have a name. I go around all the times to my friends, what do you wanna be called? And they'll say, not senior, not elderly, not old. They don't mind older. But we don't have the right terminology to say, what is this extra 30 years that of rejuvenation that we're in or in, in renaissance?

I invite anybody who has a great idea to go out there and promote it.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. Well, I can see you leading the way and coming up with the exact right name over time. Susan, this has been such a great conversation. I wanna know if we can end by, asking you the question that we ask all of our podcast guests, and that is, what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about today.

Susan Golden: So I think the secret, there are two, a secret sauce to relaunching is being a lifelong learner. I could not have done what I am doing now had I not been fortunate enough to be part of the Distinguished Careers Institute. But there are many ways to get that lifelong learning. There were lots of webinars, conferences.

I started going to conferences and as I told you, I joined SV 2 in the years before I actually relaunched. Any way you can continuing to learn and get current and get stimulated with new ideas and new information, and to the extent you can be part of a group, it's hard to do this alone. I can't tell you how many webinars I've signed up for and I put it on my calendar and I forget, and then, there's nobody else I'm doing it with, so I'm not accountable to them. But when you're a part of a program, you show up for the guest speaker, you show up for the class. So, if you can be part of a group, and that's what iRelaunch offered when I did it. I looked around the room and there were lots of people like me.

And you had this concept of returnships, which I hadn't heard before. Plus all the fabulous information and support. But you were then part of a community. So, finding a community, and there's lots of ways, it's continuing education programs throughout the United States. There's so much online right now, content that's fabulous and free.

But find a partner and an individual or a group of friends who'll do it with you or join a formal program. But it really makes all the difference to be part of a lifelong learning community. And we are going to need lifelong learning in a hundred year life, multiple times. I imagine I'm gonna be going back to do something at some point again when I need to learn more about AI or, all the technology that's changing because things are moving fast.

But it's an exciting time.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's great advice for our audience. I have one more question for you, Susan, if people want to learn more about Stage Not Age or by the book, is there a website or somewhere that they can go to?

Susan Golden: There is, there's a website called stagenotage.com, and it, on it, it lists multiple places, you can buy the book through Harvard Business Review Press, and, Barnes and Noble and Amazon. And I can offer you a discount code to all your relaunchers and I'll send that your way so you can share that, for anybody who buys the book through Harvard Business Review Press.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's wonderful. We'll share that. Thank you, Susan. Thank you so much. It's been such a great conversation.

Susan Golden: I always love being with you. Thank you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And thanks for listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch, and I want to remind our listeners who are actively relaunching to be sure and register for the iRelaunch Job Board where employers are looking to hire people specifically who are returning to work after a career break.

Thanks for joining us.


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