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Episode 107: First things first: Developing your resume with Kendell Brown

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Episode Description

A well-crafted resume is an applicant's calling card. Whether applying for a job or seeking an informational interview, it's a critical first impression, often judged at a glance. In this special edition of 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch, Guest Host, Cheryl McGee Wallace talks to career coach Kendell Brown of Ascension Careers about resumes, including drafting accomplishments vs. responsibilities, reflecting keywords, addressing career gaps and leveraging social media.

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Cheryl McGee Wallace: Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Cheryl McGee Wallace, special advisor to iRelaunch and your host for today. A well-crafted resume is an applicant's calling card. Unless you've held informational interviews with insiders at your target organizations, your resume is a critical first impression which will be judged probably at a glance today. We're discussing resumes with Kendell Brown, founder of Essential Careers. Kendell is also one of iRelaunch's experienced career coaches.

Hi, Kendell. Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

Kendell Brown: Hi, Cheryl. Thanks for inviting me on the podcast. I really appreciate the chance to talk with you and your listeners about resumes and perhaps stress some of the questions they have.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. Before we begin, can you briefly tell us a little bit about your background and experience as a career coach?

Kendell Brown: I started my coaching career over seven years ago, working with MBA students at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business.

I eventually transitioned to working with alumni of the business school, and that proved to be a really fun challenge. There's a large degree of sameness to students. They're looking for similar jobs, they have similar work histories and they're in similar life stages, whereas alumni represent such a broad spectrum of career stages, work histories, and professional goals.

It was with this population that I felt I really built my coaching chops. I also feel there's a lot of overlap between alumni and relaunchers. Each relauncher has a unique reason for leaving the workforce and then a specific personal story for wanting to re-enter it. So my time coaching alumni has prepared me very well for working with relaunchers.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: That's great. Thanks for that. So let's dig right in. I recently read an article about resumes that look like professionally designed marketing material with photographs and various fonts for each section. What are the basics of a resume format?

Kendell Brown: So at its most basic, a resume will include an applicant's name and contact info. Additionally, it's one to two pages that document an applicant's career history, educational background, and other pertinent information that details her professional development. Typically this is done in a bullet format. A professionally designed resume guarantees that the resume is aesthetically pleasing and easy to read.

And this is important for two main reasons. One, today most organizations use some form of an applicant tracking system and ATS as a first degree filter. Therefore you want your resume to be readable by this software. So consider basic facts and layouts. The second audience to consider is the actual human reader.

It's important to remember that most people spend less than ten seconds doing an initial resume read for hiring managers and HR professionals. You want a resume that someone can quickly peruse and determine if it's worth her time to do a deeper dive. Meaning you want to judiciously use font sizes, section markings to draw the reader to important content that will make her want to get to know you better.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Generally speaking, does the look and feel of resumes differ by industry? So for instance, creative industries versus more formal industries, like professional services.

Kendell Brown: You know, it's not so much a matter of different standards as it is a matter of the amount of leeway that an industry or function will accept versus other areas that attract more creative types and have a more creative work product, like graphic design, PR, or advertising.

Those are going to be much more amenable to resumes that stray from that traditional portrait layout with the reverse chronological listing of roles. So for those, including infographics, maybe a splash of color, a more informal font, is probably not too big a deal. It actually shows a little bit of your personality.

The flip side, if you're targeting more conservative industries like professional services firms, banking, law, you're best off sticking with the standard resume format. You can really do yourself a disservice going with a non-mainstream resume in those industries. If you do, an employer will start to question whether you'll even fit in. And what I will say is, if for some reason you don't know how to structure a resume for an industry or a particular role, I recommend the tried and true reverse chronological structure. That's rarely going to hurt you.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Okay, that's great. So what are your thoughts on including a statement of objectives and a section listing key skills?

Kendell Brown: So an objective statement that says something like, “I'm looking for XYZ to leverage my skills.” That's really passe. Nowadays, an objective statement like that is really just wasting space. That could be better utilized to showcase you and your skills. But with that said, I do think that a key skills section is valuable.

This is often a section below the professional summary that uses a column structure to list both hard and soft skills that a candidate considers strengths or pertinent competencies for a position. Going back to those two audiences and ATS is an algorithm coded to find words and phrases that pertain to the position listing.

So a key skill section is a guaranteed method for those words and phrases to be on your resume and be picked up by the ATS. And then remember what the human reader is looking at your resume for just a few seconds before making that critical keep or toss decision. So succinctly listing at the top of the resume what he/she is looking for benefits you. So objective statement, no key skills, definitely.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Okay. Great. And also in the course of your response, you raised the point about a summary. Can you briefly explain how the summary would be different from a statement of objectives?

Kendell Brown: A summary is a more succinct two or three sentences description of your career to date. Perhaps it mentions some critical competencies there, but it's not a statement that says something like, “and this is what I'm looking for.” In reality, if you're putting together a resume and sending it out, you're looking for a position, no need to restate that.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. Thank you for clarifying that. So dates or no dates for those that are concerned about age-ism?

Kendell Brown: At the end of the day, all recruiters can do basic math. So if you've had a variety of positions, each of which you held for a couple of years, and then you had a career break for several plus years, someone is going to look at your resume and start ballparking your age whether dates are on it or not.

It's just human nature. I do understand the desire to strike the appropriate balance between showing your experience and not scaring someone off because they think you're too old.

Some practices that I suggest clients employ are the following:

  • It’s okay to leave dates off of the education area, so feel free to do that.

  • Include an early career section. This is going to be a quick statement of work and achievements from those first few jobs that you held coming out of undergrad.

  • Next, focus on your most recent experiences. Think about the past ten, maybe fifteen years tops. I know this is tricky if you've been out of the workforce for a while. But, think about the fact that content is more important than context. So if it's a choice between including a job and a matching skill from say, seventeen years ago versus a volunteer experience where you can highlight that same skill from seventeen months ago, go with that volunteer experience.

  • Also think about trying to make your resume millennial friendly so you could drop the physical address from the contact info and just use an email address. And speaking of email addresses, if you're using AOL or Hotmail, get a new, more up to date email address. Google Gmail is always a good route to go.

  • Then also what you can do on your resume to show that you are up to date and with it is list your pertinent social media accounts. And speaking of social media, you do want to use that to your advantage and put your resume out there. The more people that see your resume and know what you're about, the better.

So I will just say that I think all of these efforts combined can help you and your resume look a little bit fresher and help overcome that age issue that we're also worried about.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: That's great. That's really very helpful. I think it's important to discuss that openly because, in conversations with relaunchers, you'll find that that's an issue that's brought up somewhat quietly on the side in a corner. I'm glad you've addressed that. Great. Where should one include recent coursework or certification?

Kendell Brown: Okay. So, typically undergraduate and graduate coursework is included near or at the end of a resume, if your degrees were earned more than a year or two ago. And for relaunchers, that's definitely the case, but for recent coursework, especially if it underscores a new career direction or an effort to reinvigorate a former skill set, that can go closer to the top of the resume, ahead of the experience section. This placement tells recruiters that these classes are essentially new news and your knowledge is current and up to date, and that's particularly valuable for the return to work demographic.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. Thank you. We recently recorded a podcast with a recruiter who said he often sees resumes that read as job descriptions instead of demonstrating accomplishments. Could you discuss the distinction between responsibilities and accomplishments?

Kendell Brown: Sure. If you look at your resume and it describes the tasks you completed, the scope of work that you were doing, and it has the characteristics of prior positions, that's a resume that features your job responsibilities.

The issue with a resume that simply describes your responsibilities is that it doesn't give the reader a sense of how you impact an organization and make it better. You really want your resume to broadcast that you've had a pattern of success that will carry over into a future role. Now, many people struggle with crafting those accomplishment-focused bullets.

A good technique for turning those responsibility type bullets into accomplishments is to add both the “how” and the “so what” of your work.

Let's say you were in charge of the intern program at your firm, a responsibility-focus bullet. It's going to say something like “Coordinated a 12 week summer program for 15 interns across three departments.” Whereas an accomplishment-focused bullet will say something like “Coordinated a 12 week summer program for 15 interns across three departments. Managed the onboarding process and established a midsummer performance review resulting in an 80% offer rate, a 25% increase over the prior summer.” Now think about it, which bullet is going to excite you as a hiring manager? I mean, really, the thing to remember is that it doesn't pay to be modest when you're looking for a job. So make sure that that resume is really singing your praises.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. That's a really great response. I liked the example too, because it becomes very clear what is just a description of something that you would read in a job posting versus something that only you could have done, that makes that distinction very clear.

Kendell Brown: Yes, and Cheryl, you hit it exactly on the head. You want to highlight what is it that happened that only you could have made happen.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. So we've touched on this earlier, but I'd like to go into it into a little bit more detail. Could you discuss the importance of keywords and reflecting the terminology used in the job posting?

Kendell Brown: I emphasize this because it also raises the importance of networking with insiders in a firm to better understand the firm's lingo and exactly what they're seeking for the position. Hiring firms are always looking for candidates that show that they want to work at their organizations and candidates can show this in a variety of ways.

One critical way is networking, talking with current and former employees about what it's really like to work there and get the inside scoop. Another way to learn about an organization and then showcase that eventually is doing your company research, reading annual reports, press releases and all of that investigative work. There's an underrated benefit, which is you get to hear how the company talks about itself and the language employees use to describe their work. I completely advocate exploiting this learning by taking that language and incorporating phrases that you've heard, titles that you've seen, keywords that you've read and putting those into your resume. You know, and easy example is, if they use the term project owner and your resume has project manager,

update your resume to say project manager. Why do you want to make these tweaks? It's really because the managers write these postings in their company's specific language. So if you're using the language that they use, I know I sound like a broken record, but that ATS will actually be able to find the matches between your resume and the posting.

Therefore you're more likely to make it through that first round pass. Also by using this language, you're making it easier for that human reader to both process and understand your resume.

And then I guess, just to respond to your question a little bit more directly, I do often recommend that clients create a word cloud out of a posting to find those keywords and then pepper that language throughout their resume and their other professional documents.The reality is that companies start to picture you fitting in when you can speak their language.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: That's a great idea. And how would you develop a word cloud? Is there a website or something online that would help you do that? Is it part of a program?

Kendell Brown: Sure. If you just google word cloud, or I think Wordle, W O R D L E, that's a popular website that will do that for you. And what a word cloud is, basically it'll take some texts that you provided that you input. And the outcome of the word cloud is basically a bunch of words in a jumble, but those words that the website reads as being most important will come across bigger and in the center of that cloud. And so those words that are the biggest and most centered are the ones that you want to make sure that you use in your networking you use in interviews. And of course you're putting on your resume too.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: That sounds great. Thank you. So now let's dig into the nitty gritty of this. The most frequent question, when it comes to relaunchers’ resumes is how does one actually address the career break in the resume?

This is a potentially fraught issue for relaunchers and I presume there will not be a one size fits all response, but a gap in employment can be disqualifying for some employers full stop. What are your thoughts about addressing the gap?

Kendell Brown: So, you know, what I will say is we all make choices in life, and I feel strongly that a relauncher should not have to apologize for taking a career break. With that said, I do think that rules and policies are made to be broken.

Honestly with this type of organization, a resume with a career break, whether it's highlighted or not, is probably not going to get that far on its own in that type of organization. This is really a time when you need to network your way in. So look for an advocate that will say to a hiring manager. “On paper, I know she's not what you're looking for, but I've gotten to know her and here are all the reasons why you should talk to her anyway.” I know this podcast episode isn't about networking, so I don't want to dwell too much on the topic, but in this scenario, I really think networking is probably your best option.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Exactly. And this is specifically addressing those firms for whom a gap will be disqualifying.

Kendell Brown: Yes, exactly. And like I said, a lot of firms put criteria out there, but when it comes down to a face to face discussion, there can be some wiggle room around that. So if you're applying to those firms via resume only,

unfortunately your chances of getting in aren't that high, and that's why you need an advocate on the inside and you need to do some networking to make that happen.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Okay, great. Many return to work programs actually require a career break as a key eligibility criteria. That can be a challenge for relaunchers who took a break, but still worked on a mixture of pro bono and small projects on a part-time basis. They'll want to show the career break, but also give themselves credit for keeping one foot in the marketplace. What advice would you give someone in that conundrum?

Kendell Brown: Okay. What I will say is that returnships are a great way to reenter the workforce. When a company establishes a returnship program, they are committed to the relaunching population, which is good news for all of us as a relauncher myself. That means a lot to me. But one thing to note is that these programs, because of all the press and everything that they get, they get a huge number of applications for just a few slots. So the acceptance rates are pretty low.

We know that statistics I see are that they're often less than 1%. Furthermore, they may not be the best return to work option for many of us, perhaps due to geography constraints, travel requirements, et cetera. So I do want to remind listeners that there are still many, many, many opportunities to return to work outside of these programs.

Now, if you are attracted to an organization that offers a returnship, but you don't meet the eligibility criteria, the good news is that these firms have already highlighted that they are open to non-traditional candidates. I recommend that candidates look for direct hire opportunities within these firms. Because, with these firms coming in as a direct hire, all of that freelance pro bono consulting work that you've done during your break is going to speak volumes and work in your favor when it comes to the networking and interview process.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: That's great. And what I hear from your responses to both of those issues is where there's a will, there's a way. I think, as relaunchers, we know that there will be obstacles, but the onus really lies on the individual as to how they're going to deal with those obstacles. You can allow them to stop you, or you can look for a way around them.

And ways to navigate it may mean you look at other employers, but you're reading the writing on the wall. As you say, with firms that have relaunch programs, they're already indicating that they're interested. So apply anyway for full-time permanent roles. That's a great response. Thank you.

Kendell Brown: Great.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: In our recruiters series, our guests recommend highlighting substantive skills, regardless of whether they were obtained through paid work internships or volunteer opportunities. Shouldn't applicants separate paid internships and unpaid work on the resume?

Kendell Brown: First off. I just want to say, I definitely agree with your earlier podcast guests. What's important is that you have the skills. What's of less interest to employers is the context in which they were developed. So with that said, I admit I'm not too dogmatic with my clients about how they title the sections in their resumes. So I'm okay with it, if someone wants to group it all together and call it experience.

I will say, I've worked with a number of clients that started careers in corporate America, took a career break and now they're looking to do something different, something that speaks to their heart a little bit more so, and they're looking for

non-profit work. In those cases, my clients want to show that they're familiar with the idiosyncrasies of working in a mission-minded organization. So for those scenarios, clients are purposefully calling out sections like volunteer experience, nonprofit board experience. What I suggest is thinking about where you're sending your resume and how what you've done aligns with the position and what the organization is all about and adjust accordingly.

And, as I just said, what's most important is a candidate showing that she's got those skills and it's not such a concern where those skills and experiences reside and what section they are on the resume.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: That's great. And that goes back to the conversation about the gap where some firms advise relaunchers not to indicate that they've had, say for instance, an independent consulting firm during their break, unless it was an official business where they're actually able to outline the work and the skills that were developed during that consulting period.

Kendell Brown: And what I want to say in response to that is that first and foremost, your resume needs to be accurate. Additionally, you should recognize that anything on your resume is fair game in an interview.

So if my resume says I am the founder and CEO of Kendell Brown Consulting, I need to be able to talk in detail about the type of consulting projects I completed, how I marketed myself, the clients I serve, the number of engagements I managed, et cetera. If I'm not able to do that, I'm going to come across as incompetent at best and as dishonest and trustworthy at worst. None of those is going to lead to a job offer.

I have to admit I'm a big fan of addressing any red flags head-on. The reason being is that when a candidate broaches a potentially concerning topic, let's say a career break, she gets to shape the story, meaning she can frame it in such a way that the resume reader becomes less concerned about the issue and more interested in her as a candidate.

Suffice it to say, I actually advocate for including a career break statement on your resume. With that said, I'm going to anticipate your followup, which is going to be, what does that actually mean?

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Yeah.

Kendell Brown: So here's an example of a career break statement, it can read something like, “Voluntarily left the workforce to care for an elderly parent, professional hiatus punctuated by several volunteer roles in which I made notable and salient contributions to small businesses and nonprofit organizations, eager and committed to return to the workforce in a full-time capacity.” And that's it, it can be as brief as that, as succinct as that. And the thing to note is that this statement directly addresses the two biggest concerns with relaunchers which are, why did she take the break and how committed is she to returning to the workforce? So you've addressed that and it hasn't taken up a lot of space on your resume, but there’s still a lot of time to talk about all the other good stuff on your resume that you want a reader to know about it.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Okay, great. So let's look at this idea of the format of the resume: is a chronological resume preferable to a functional resume, or is there some hybrid that would be a middle ground?

Kendell Brown: Sure. As I keep saying, an ATS that actually is going to scan the entirety of your resume when it “reads” it. In reality format is of little concern to a software program. So the format decision is really for that HR professional or that hiring manager.

Okay, a front-loaded resume. We'll briefly highlight key candidate details directly below the contact info. So sections, like we already mentioned, a professional summary or a key skills section and a career highlight section.Those are going to catch a reader's attention because we're hitting them with that most relevant and significant info as soon as we can. And the takeaway is the HR manager or hiring manager, whoever it is, is either going to want to continue reading right then and there, which would be great, or at a minimum, they're going to put that resume, that front loaded document, in that refer to later pile. Nowadays, resumes that have that, that's what we're calling a hybrid resume. It achieves the goal of capturing the attention of a reader in under ten seconds, which is what you need to do. I actually am all for that hybrid format for any situation. What I will say in today's market, the hybrid resume is so commonplace that it's actually considered the standard. If you don't at least have a professional summary at the top of your resume, you're going to date yourself.

So when I say the typical standard, the typical format, the traditional resume, the standard format, I'm actually referring to that hybrid format. Now, one thing I do want to say is a lot of people will ask me about a functional format, and I'm going to be honest and say, I'm not such a fan.

When someone sees a functionally formatted resume, the first thing they ask is, what is that candidate trying to hide? And as they're spending that ten seconds reading the resume, as opposed to being focused on the content, they're going to be trying to suss out what's the issue here. And you just don't have time for that.

Therefore, go with that standard, aka hybrid format.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. So then how would that work with online profiles on a firm's career website with a strict title from date format?

Kendell Brown: Okay. Yeah. And another piece of advice I give my clients is once you've got your resume completed, and you feel really good about it, create a backup version that is one page, old school, traditional format, so you can use it in situations like that. Typically that's going to be a one-page document. And I do just want to call out, when it comes to page length of a resume, because that's a very common question that I get. A good rule of thumb is a one-page resume if you have ten years or less experience, two pages for any length of experience over ten years. And lastly, a personal issue of mine is that if you move to a two-page resume, I really believe you should fill the entirety of the two pages.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Okay. Great. What are your thoughts on video resumes? Too gimmicky?

Kendell Brown: A video resume is basically a nin3 second to two minute one sided conversation in which an applicant is answering those common interview questions. What's nice about this is that you get to prep before the video shoot. So, no nerves, you just come across as a supremely confident candidate.

Those that favor video resumes say that employers can get a more in-depth understanding of a potential employee. Now, the downside of physio video resumes is that one, you may be answering questions that the employer really isn't interested in. And then two, they actually are just a bit more inconvenient for a recruiter to deal with.

They have a stack of papers and then they have to go from that stack to the computer and find the resume. So it is a bit more inconvenient, but the biggest con, and I think this is a pretty significant one, with video resumes is that companies fear claims of bias in their hiring practices. So consequently, most won't even accept a video resume. So before you take the time to script, record and edit a video, do some research and try to figure out, is it even going to be watched?

And I actually believe you get a better bang for your buck by beefing up your online presence. So take full advantage of LinkedIn. Use the summary section, get those endorsements, get those recommendations, write a professionally oriented blog, join an industry related forum. So, I will say, as I mentioned today, I'm not a proponent of video resumes, but I do understand that employers are the market makers in this arena. I'm actually going to keep my eye on this issue to see how things play out in the future. Who knows, my response two, three, seven years down the line could change.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Yeah. And it could also be that they're more prevalent in some industries than others. The idea of that personally makes me cringe, but I've seen it done in other industries. So it could just be that it depends on the role that you're applying for.

Kendell Brown: Yes, I totally agree. When we're talking just generalities, I think it's better to stay away from them, but you never know. And that's where doing some research and some networking can play in your favor. If you learn that this company, this HR person, for whatever reason, really likes them, now you know that and can consider making one.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. Would you recommend linking to a work product in a resume or should one leave that to LinkedIn?

Kendell Brown: You know, as with videos, the hassle, if finding a resume, reviewing it, and then following a link, maybe more time and effort than someone really wants to devote.

All the HR people that I talk with say that they go to LinkedIn for 100% of the candidates that they consider. So couple that with the fact that LinkedIn readily lends itself to pointing recruiters to material outside of those typical professional documents, I'd say, go ahead. Definitely put it on LinkedIn.

I mentioned earlier that if you are having issues filling a resume, and I do believe you should get to the entirety of a page. If you've got space, then go ahead and link it here too. But don't put links to this type of info on your resume at the expense of something else that could be included there.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Okay, great. Should the content of the resume mirror a LinkedIn profile or vice versa, ie. just using LinkedIn as a public version of your resume?

Kendell Brown: Hmm. You know, I will say this is like the number two question that I get when it comes to resumes. And, what I will say is that a resume is beholden to the past. It reflects what you've done. The beauty of LinkedIn is that it doesn't have that constraint. Therefore, your LinkedIn profile can be forward-looking in a way a resume can’t. All job seekers should have a LinkedIn profile. However, it is particularly valuable for those candidates that are looking to do something that may not seem like a typical next step.

So I encourage my clients to use the summary section of LinkedIn to answer those questions that a resume cannot, meaning, let's say you have a finance background, but now you want to pivot into marketing. That summary section is a place to explain that despite your primary focus, always being on the numbers, you always looked at your work through the lens of how your recommendations would impact the end consumer.

Now, even if you are looking to do something similar, LinkedIn allows you the opportunity to portray your depth of experience in a way that the limited real estate of a resume just doesn't have time to allow. So I'm very much on board with using LinkedIn to its fullest degree and having it compliment your resume versus reiterate it.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. That's a really great point. Should one include a cover letter? I keep hearing both ways nowadays. There's many who say “no” and “yes.”

Kendell Brown: I feel that you should go ahead and include it if you're applying for a job. And the postseason says that a cover letter is optional, by all means include a cover letter and here's why: About half of the HR professionals I know say they read cover letters, the other half don't. The thing is when you apply for a position, you don't know which half is on the receiving end of your application materials. So at worst, someone throws away the cover letter without having read it.

At best someone reads your cover letter, learns more about you and decides you're potentially a great fit for the role. And the other thing about cover letters is that they're like LinkedIn profiles in that they allow you a latitude that the resume doesn't. And the great thing about a cover letter is that it's highly, highly, highly customizable.

The cover letter is where you can write about an experience that may not be significant enough to include on your resume, and it may be to choose a specific detail to include on a public forum like LinkedIn. So I consider a cover letter another opportunity to sell yourself and, as a job seeker, you should take every chance to do just that.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. That's wonderful. So the final question is one that we asked all of our podcast guests, what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience even if it's something that we already talked about today?

Kendell Brown: I will say the number one question I get is should I create a resume for each position for which I apply? And the answer is yes. Now, before everybody gets scared and stressed out, this is a process that shouldn't take too long. At the end of the day, the skills you've developed and the experiences you've had, they don't change simply because you're applying for a different position.

So once you get a well-written resume in place, you should expect to update at most about 20% of it for each new job posting. So, yes, go ahead and create a new resume for every position for which you apply. Recognize, it shouldn't take that long to do so.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. Thank you, Kendell Brown, for joining us today. How can people find out more about the coaching services your firm offers?

Kendell Brown: Oh, people can go to my website that's Ascension Careers,, and find me there.

Cheryl McGee Wallace: Great. Thanks for listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Cheryl McGee Wallace, your host. For more information on iRelaunch, go to

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