Carol speaks with Nancy Eberhardt, Executive Director of Pro Bono Partnership, a nationally recognized provider of free business and transactional legal services to nonprofits. The organization recruits and supports volunteer attorneys with a range of specializations to help nonprofits achieve their goals, avoid risk, and better serve their constituencies. Carol and Nancy discuss how skills-based volunteer work can better position relaunchers for return to work success, and examples of legal work provided by the Pro Bono Partnership.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the chair and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host for today. Today, we're speaking with Nancy Eberhardt, Executive Director of Pro Bono Partnership, which provides legal services to nonprofits with specific missions, which we'll talk about shortly. Our theme is "How Skill-based Volunteering Better Positions You to Relaunch," with Pro Bono Partnership opportunities as a prime example. Nancy, welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.
Nancy Eberhardt: Thanks very much, Carol, I'm looking forward to speaking with you today.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, thank you so much for your time. Before we get further into the examples and how Pro Bono Partnership works as an organization, can you give us a little bit of history about it and the summary of the work that you do?
Nancy Eberhardt: Certainly. So the Pro Bono Partnership was launched almost 22 years ago by a group of lawyers, corporate lawyers in the New York and Connecticut area, that realized that they had two sets of needs that felt particularly well qualified to address. They had a number of lawyers who worked generally in-house at corporations, who had skills that were business and transactional legal skills, not necessarily litigators. But these were lawyers who wanted to give back to the community, but often felt somewhat out of place taking on what we thought of perhaps 20 or 30 years ago as traditional pro bono matters, often representing individual defendants or individuals in situations involving criminal law or incarceration.
These lawyers know how to help businesses. So they have business law skills. And at the same time, there were a large number of nonprofits serving the communities in suburban New York and in Connecticut that had a need for legal services on a daily basis to understand their own corporate structure, their governance needs, to be able to understand the legal terms in the contracts they were signing or the leases they were entering, to understand if they had rights regarding their own intellectual property as an organization. But they didn't have the money.
These nonprofits had money that they were making to serve their communities. They did not have money to pay for lawyers. The idea was, wouldn't it be great if we could introduce these two groups to each other, the nonprofits who need the legal services and the lawyers who know how to provide those legal services to corporations and to companies.
And really, it's not a big change from providing that advice to, for example, a GE, to providing corporate advice to a nonprofit. The scale is different, but the basic concepts are the same. So that's how we were born. And again, 22 years ago serving Westchester and Fairfield counties in Connecticut, very quickly expanded to serve the whole lower Hudson Valley, then part of New Jersey, then all of New Jersey. We are now serving all of New Jersey, all of Connecticut, the lower Hudson Valley, and Long Island. We serve thousands of non-profits a year with thousands of matters. We have literally thousands of volunteer lawyers who jump in to help on matters where they have skills and expertise and want to help their communities.
Carol Fishman Cohen: That sounds amazing. And what about your personal involvement with it? What is your career history with Pro Bono Partnership?
Nancy Eberhardt: Well, I started as a somewhat experienced lawyer. I had 13 years of experience in environmental work, a lot of administrative and regulatory work. And I was looking to find work that was more meaningful to me, and stumbled upon the New Jersey office of the Pro Bono Partnership, which was in need of a second lawyer.
So I joined as a staff attorney. And we have staff attorneys, we currently have nine, don't hold me to that, staff attorneys in our four offices, who work with the nonprofits to help them understand the general legal environment in which they're working, help identify what legal needs those nonprofits have, and then work to match those nonprofit clients with volunteers in law firms and corporations throughout the area who have that skill set and want to help that organization. So I did that for a number of years. Then I became the director of the New Jersey program, where I served for 12 years. And the last, almost two years, I've been serving as executive director of the partnership for all of our areas where we work.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Got it. And in a little bit, I do want to walk through with you the mechanics of, you just started to touch on it, but a little more deeply, examples of different types of legal issues that you work on. And then what happens when a nonprofit has a legal issue and they come to you, and then what happens when an individual lawyer comes to you who wants to volunteer with you?
But before that, I was intrigued right away when I was looking at the background of the Pro Bono Partnership, because I noticed that a part of the incubation of one of the nonprofits that I most admire, Rising Tide Capital, which I've been following almost since inception, with the founder, Alfa Demmellash.
You have done extensive work with that organization. And I wanted to know if maybe as a case study, you can describe for us a little bit more about that relationship and the types of work you have done with them and maybe a little history about how it's evolved over time.
Nancy Eberhardt: Sure, I'd be happy to. Rising Tide does track a fairly common path with many of the clients that we start working with at inception.
Although I will say Rising Tide is one of our rockstar clients, and they really have been amazing. So Rising Tide Capital, as I think you know, Carol, was formed in 2004 by two very idealistic, recent college graduates who wanted to help communities help themselves. They came to our New Jersey office in 2004 with this idea of how they could start this small business incubator to help areas that were perhaps underserved economically, to develop their own businesses. And we helped that organization incorporate. Again, these two people were very smart and understood a lot of business concepts, but didn't understand legal concepts, particularly with nonprofits, which a lot of people don't. So we helped them form their corporation, develop their board, and applied for tax exempt status from the IRS. And since then we've worked on literally dozens of matters with Rising Tide Capital, everything from the initial contracts in which Rising Tide was working with local communities, with local universities and colleges, helping them understand lots of leases.
Rising Tide has expanded over the years and they've moved and had to renovate space. And each time there are real estate legal issues that arise. Rising Tide staff are great with understanding the business terms of those relationships, but the legal terms are something that it is really helpful to have an experienced commercial real estate lawyer walk one through, and we've done a great job with that, matching them with lawyers from a number of businesses, corporations and firms that wanted to help them. They have occasional questions about, “Will this particular proposed activity have any impact on our tax exempt status?” And usually the answer is “no,” but they're being smart and proactive in thinking about potential risks before they enter new ventures and opportunities.
They have a lot of employment issues because they have grown from the two founders to having a quite large staff. So like any other organization with employees, they need to make sure they're complying with all the applicable employment laws, which vary not only by state, but also sometimes by municipality. We help them develop a set of personnel policies, job application forms that are compliant with the relevant state laws, employee benefits questions, as they are able to offer health and other benefits to their employees. In general, contracts, again, lots of contract advice, and much more intellectual property than I think they even anticipated at the beginning to protect their curriculum, to make sure that their name and logo, which was a very great name, Rising Tide Capital is a great name, to make sure that no one could infringe on it.
So we've helped them with dozens of matters over the years. And we've gone from working just with the two founders as our contacts, to working with a lot of the other business leads within Rising Tide on particular matters.
Carol Fishman Cohen: So that's amazing. And I also want to say that they were really ahead of their time, with the whole incubator concept before it caught on as we know it today. Just to hear the fundamental role that Pro Bono Partnership played in the establishment and growth of this high-impact nonprofit, can you talk about pay or reduced rates, or how does that work?
Nancy Eberhardt: So, for the legal services we do look at, and we do this with every non-profit that applies to us, we look at not only the size of the organization's budget and their sophistication, but whether they have cash available to pay for lawyers.
And this is a bit of a tricky qualifying question, because some organizations are much larger than others, yet sometimes the smaller organization has more funds available to pay for lawyers because they have funds that are not dedicated or restricted to any other purpose and aren't planned to pay for services.
But our services are all done on a pro bono basis. And if an organization develops, and this has happened so much I don't want to call it “excess capital,” because it's available as a buffer to them or to use for other things. But if they have enough capital to pay for a lawyer, then certainly if they have been hiring lawyers for certain matters, then we often will tell them, “We think you've outgrown and we're launching you out into the legal world, although we'll still be available for questions.” Rising Tide is still, we're doing those matters on a pro bono basis. And because we've determined that even though they're growing, they don't have cash available to pay for services, they would need to cut back on their programs.
So they come to us when they have matters, we go out to our group of law firms and corporations who have the expertise that Rising Tide needs in a particular matter, and we find them a contract lawyer, or a real estate lawyer, or an intellectual property lawyer to walk them through the project to help negotiate on their behalf.
And they've developed some great relationships with a number of our companies and firms who support us. And, so yes, they have not paid, at some point that may happen, but we were not there yet.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Very interesting. And so just then to dive a little deeper on the individual side, now that we have an example of what it's like on the client side.
So, for lawyers who are providing these pro bono legal services, it sounds like many of them are actively working with law firms or in legal departments of companies, and they do this as their side pro bono because of interest in providing pro bono legal services as part of the mix of what they do.
Do you also have relaunchers in the mix who are lawyers who are on career break for one reason or another, but I want to be actively involved in delivering legal services while they're on career break?
Nancy Eberhardt: Yeah, we do actually. I would say the most common situation of that is, we certainly have worked with relaunchers.
We also work with a lot of retired lawyers, lawyers who have retired from the active practice, but want to remain active in their community, but they don't want to have the day-to-day of going to work. So, they have this skill set. They are welcome to help. We love working with them. When there are lawyers who relaunch, we usually have projects available in their areas of expertise, as long as they do something that we have services for. Again, we don't assist with litigation matters. So for someone who just wants to do litigation, they'd be better off looking for opportunities to volunteer elsewhere. But, we do think of it as the ultimate skills-based volunteering that opens up doors and makes connections.
And it's not unusual for lawyers that are volunteering with us to sometimes end up on the board of our nonprofit client as a volunteer board member, because they develop an excitement about the mission and are interested in what the organization's doing. And we certainly have many solo practitioners and people who have their own business and want to work with us, not because their company is encouraging it, but because it's important to them. But as far as lawyers who are relaunching, would this be a good opportunity, a good time for me to talk about some of the relaunchers we'd have worked with us?
So three people came to mind immediately as people who have worked with us, and I think quite successfully. One was a relaunching lawyer who had actually enrolled in Pace Law's New Directions program, which I don't know if it's still active, I think you're familiar.
Carol Fishman Cohen: It's not still active, but that was a terrific program that produced some excellent relaunch success stories.
Nancy Eberhardt: They really were. And this lawyer had worked in for-profit law before her career break. She had a significant maybe 10 or 15 year career break, and she came out of Pace Law's program and did her internship program with Pro Bono Partnership, and learned a lot of different areas of law with us. She had obviously a basic solid corporate law skill set, but needed to understand more about the tax exempt law and the nonprofit side.
She really wanted to move into nonprofit work. And so the work that we gave her was a lot of corporate governance, basic corporate agreements, contracts. She did a lot of research, learned a lot of things. We were able to give her templates and advice and steer her in the right direction and connect her with lawyers who could help her understand some of the finer points in specific areas of law where we didn't necessarily have that skill in-house. But she honed her skills with the nonprofit sector, working with us for about a year or two volunteering, and then moved on to an in-house, full-time job, as general counsel in a nonprofit in New York City. So the skills she learned from us were really almost directly applicable to being a general counsel of a smaller nonprofit. That was a great success.
Another person who was relaunching was actually relocating to the United States, or locating to the United States. This person had been working in legal in Europe for many years, had relocated to New York state and was looking for a way to get the 50 hours of pro bono that by the way, New York now requires for all new admittees to the New York State Bar license. And, this person took on projects with us.
She wanted to get experience here and volunteered with us on and off for several years. She said volunteering with us helped her feel like an American lawyer. She had some pretty basic solid grounding, but not in the US law. And she did a number of different kinds of matters. We again, as we always do with any volunteer who has some basic knowledge, but needs to understand some more of the fine points, we talk to them about it. But we also have lots of templates, and suggested reading and publications, and things that we can steer them towards. We introduced that person in the end to various banks as she had been working in legal work in banks before. And she did end up with a job in a US bank, and was very excited because she was up to date with non-profit law. She was up to speed with that, but she also had learned some basics that were different in US law from European law overall in the corporate sector. So that went very well for her to make that step.
And then the third one was really just, she'd worked in the for-profit sector, she had several years off, and she was looking to get back in, but this time to the nonprofit sector and in very similar to the last example with the European woman. In this case, we were able to introduce her to areas of nonprofit law that she could work in, and understand the nuances of nonprofits so that when she was ready to look for a job, she was really well situated to do that.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Those are really interesting. And when you say, “introduce the lawyers on career break to areas of nonprofit law,” are they shadowing? Is there a team-based approach to some of the legal work that you do for organizations? How do they get that introduction?
Nancy Eberhardt: Yes. Really, when people volunteer with us, the level of engagement that our staff attorneys provide depends on a number of things.
Many lawyers don't need any involvement from us. A trademark lawyer who's working for a large pharmaceutical company is going to be able to do the trademark work, and doesn't really need anything from us to help them. But a lawyer who comes in with a corporate background, a general corporate background, perhaps doesn't understand the nuances of nonprofit law, we have templates for each of the states in which we work: this is what these corporate governance policies look like, this is what a certificate of incorporation must say in each of these states, here's an article talking about how to ensure that you comply with the filing requirements for nonprofit formation and governance in each of these states. And those are documents or pieces that either we have written up or volunteers with expertise in that area have written up, or in some cases, colleagues of ours around the country have written up to help their lawyers understand the nuances of nonprofit law.
And we're always available for any volunteer, whether they're relaunchers or working full time. If they have questions about non-profits, we're there, we're the backstop. We can help answer the questions. And in fact, we also help if a lawyer is going out helping with a particular matter and discovers that there's some area, this fine point of law that was raised in a contract or an agreement that is not common, and they hadn't seen it before, and they don't know the answer to it, and we don't know the answer to it at Pro Bono Partnership. We can then go to our pool of lawyers, and there may well be someone who happens to have expertise in something.
For example, we had a matter that involved redevelopment of a non-profits facility. And there was a question about condominium law. And that's not something that we knew or the volunteer lawyer knew, but we have someone at a law firm who's actually an expert on that. So that person helped the matter along with us and the volunteer until that issue was resolved. So we can help make connections among a lot of different lawyers with a lot of different areas of expertise.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Very interesting. So I noticed, because when I was researching Pro Bono Partnership, that of course, you have paid roles. You talked about staff who work as part of the paid staff of Pro Bono Partnership, and I noticed that you are currently looking for an administrative assistant in your White Plains office.
And I wanted to know, do sometimes people start in a role like that and then they move around over time or, do people pretty much stay in their roles? And what is the employment and work environment like at Pro Bono Partnership?
Nancy Eberhardt: Yes, we do have people that start in one role and move into another.
It happens, I will be honest, a little less with the attorneys. Generally, they're starting as a staff attorney, if that's what they want to do. We have had attorneys service in other roles, such as marketing coordinators in the past. So we wouldn't not hire an attorney if that was the work that they knew how to do and wanted to do it.
But generally, yes, we do hire, for example, administrative assistants. And in fact, the last two administrative assistants here in our White Plains office are now doing other jobs in our office. One is working with our development director on researching and coordinating grant applications. And another one is working on helping plan the gala, our annual fundraising gala, and is working in that part of development.
Another one in a different office started as an administrative assistant and is now the marketing assistant and coordinator. So frequently, those people will move into different roles, and as they develop the skills and or the interest in moving there, that is something we are happy to do with that.
Again, lawyers often do start as staff attorneys and then stay on, just become more experienced staff attorneys. I mean, I started as a staff attorney and now I am the executive director, so that is an example. But yeah, there, there are definitely opportunities within the organization to move on. Again with lawyers, there's kind of a...
Carol Fishman Cohen: I understand. I was actually asking the question because I was intrigued for non lawyers who are listening to this podcast who are relaunching, who have a lot of capabilities in marketing or grant writing or development or event planning. The idea that you could come in rather entry-level and then move into one of these other roles over time, because your organization is continuing to grow, is intriguing to me, and just something I wanted to flag for our audience.
Nancy Eberhardt: We're happy to support them as much as possible. You know, for example, a couple of the young people in our office, not necessarily younger, but newer people in our office, we encouraged them to enroll in a Westchester Emerging Leaders program, because this main office is in Westchester County so that they have, it's really for people who have started out in nonprofits at some point in their career, but really are you want more of a more holistic role or a fuller role and are looking at their careers going forward.
And so, it's a very neat program that Westchester has set up for emerging nonprofit leaders to be exposed to lots of different issues. We encourage people to follow professional development and we have a budget to pay for people's professional development so that they can learn things that are of interest to them, where they want to broaden and grow.
And I am embarrassed to say this, but I forgot one of our staff attorneys in the New Jersey office is a relauncher, someone whose company closed down after a number of years, who was a very senior lawyer there, started volunteering with us a couple of days a week, just to keep himself busy.
And then when an opportunity opened for a staff attorney, we didn't even look, we just offered him that job because he had been with us for a couple of years volunteering, and we knew what an excellent job he had done. So that was a case of a volunteer being hired. Again, we don't have a big staff, so that's not going to happen a lot, but it did happen.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes.I'm so glad you remembered to say that. That is just great to hear and what a perfect example. So when I'm listening to you talk, Nancy, it just sounds like this organization, your organization, is amazing and it's had it feels like explosive growth since inception, it's continuing to grow.
So I'm just interested in, when you're looking toward the future five years out or 10 years, what do you see as the vision for the Pro Bono Partnership?
Nancy Eberhardt: Well, that is a very good question, Carol, because it's something we talk about here a lot. Growth has been, we have grown quite a bit geographically, and the question has been, is that something that we should try to continue or sustain? We have a wonderful board, who's very involved and has lots of very strong opinions about this. And I think they are happy to support strategic growth. So if there is a need in an adjacent community, there's also a desire to support the work there, both from a volunteer lawyer perspective and a financial perspective that we might expand it somewhat.
There are, however, lots of other organizations around the country who do this, and some of them bump up against our service areas. So, our plan is not to take over anybody else's work. So what we really have been thinking about here is, we've grown a lot, we have lots of clients, but are we really addressing the areas of need in our community as best we can?
And so we've spent a good amount of time over the past couple of years, talking internally and to others about whether we can do a better job identifying those nonprofit organizations in our communities that may not for a number of reasons be as connected to the nonprofit infrastructure that exists in communities. Examples might be an organization that is just very grassroots is working in one neighborhood, it's doing a ton of work with very little resources and just doesn't have the time or the energy to go out and figure out what other resources they should be looking at, or even to figure out if they are structuring things, right?
Are they taking undue risks? And the question is, how do we reach those groups to let them know about us, but almost as importantly, to make sure that the services that we are offering them from a legal side or legal perspective are really what they need to move forward? So working more collaboratively with certain communities to dig in deeper and make sure we really understand that people who are making a difference in each of those communities, and what it is they need to move forward. It may be that what they need isn't legal assistance. They may need some other kind of assistance or help.
We may not be able to provide that directly. We may be able to introduce them to ways to obtain some of those services because of the kind of work we do. And that becomes more holistic and sometimes out beyond just straight legal work.
So that's really what we're looking at for the next five years is to figure out, how can we do that? How can we get to know the communities better? Have communities get to know us better and be comfortable with coming to us with issues where we can then see if we can help them figure out or find them someone who can? Because we are part of that non-profit infrastructure in the tri-state area, and we know a lot of resources that would be available to them.
So that's really our five-year plan. We have, in a bigger area we've made other excursions, there is now a Pro Bono Partnership of Atlanta, and there's a Pro Bono Partnership of Ohio that are not part of our organization, but they use our name, pro Bono Partnership, and we've helped them get started and jump off. And they're both going very strong right now. We'd be happy to help if other groups of lawyers came to us in other areas of the country, where there is a lack of services for nonprofits, we probably would be happy to help them as well. But I don't think our goal is to be the nationwide answer, because what we're seeing is that really a lot of these solutions are being addressed locally and are perhaps better addressed locally.
Carol Fishman Cohen: And that's really interesting. And it leads me into my next question, which you already started to talk about, about what's happening in other areas of country, a long time ago, we connected with the founder of the DC Volunteer Lawyers Project, and that's an organization that focuses more on domestic violence, and it was originally founded by a relauncher. So, that was a model that we had seen before.
But what you're talking about is something very different in terms of the legal services you're providing, and the idea that you've been a resource for Atlanta and Ohio to grow similar organizations, I understand that part of the requirement and benefit of the organization is that you're local and you understand the local law or the state law in the areas where these nonprofits are establishing themselves. And that's going to be different from state to state. So, very generous of you to be in a role where you're helping similar organizations in other states to start and to grow.
Nancy Eberhardt: Which isn't to say that, oh, I'm sorry.
Carol Fishman Cohen: No, go ahead.
Nancy Eberhardt: I was trying to say there are a number of organizations that we're part of, affiliation is probably too strong a word, a coalition of groups like ours around the country who are doing this work. For example, the DC Bar Pro Bono Program does have a community economic development program, which is very similar to our program. So it's one segment of the DC Bar Pro Bono Program.
The Justice and Diversity Center, which is part of the San Francisco Bar Association, has a program very much like ours. There's a group called Wayfind in Seattle that does what we do in the greater Seattle area. There is a group called Public Counsel in Los Angeles who provides legal services across the board, pro bono legal services to individuals and organizations. But again, they have a division that works specifically with nonprofits.
So the way it works in each area is completely different. Because it was generated locally, it may be part of a bar association, it may have come out of a law school, it may be a standalone organization. It may be an organization that provides more holistic services to the nonprofit sector in their state as a whole, such as Michigan Community Resources, and that includes legal services to nonprofits.
So it looks different in a lot of different areas, but most of the major metropolitan areas, and I stress major, have some kind of program like this. Many of the, I'll call secondary sized cities, don't have a program like this. And most rural parts of the United States don't have a program like this.
There are some exceptions, such as in Texas, where it's being provided by the Texas Rural Aid Legal Project to nonprofits as well as to individuals. But in most places there are some big gaps. There are some states, for example, Arizona and New Mexico, where I'm not aware of anybody doing this kind of work with nonprofits.
So it's something that we hope to be part of altogether is to help encourage other companies, law firms, people around the state, to get together and figure out how, because it's really such a great tool, not just for the nonprofits, it's such an assistance to them, but it's a great way for the lawyers and the companies and the law firms in their communities to really get involved and help strengthen their own communities. So we try to help out with that, and it's not just us though. We're part of a group of organizations that are all trying to help make that happen in other places.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, thank you for talking about what's going on in the rest of the country, and I hope that our listening audience, which is national, was listening closely to those examples that you stated about similar organizations around the country doing this kind of work, pro bono or for nonprofit organizations. It's certainly a call to action for those in Arizona or New Mexico to think about starting a similar effort, and those who are in major metropolitan areas, both attorneys, and non attorneys, who could get involved in the mission of an organization like this, or, actually get involved in providing the legal services themselves. Both great opportunities for relaunchers, and as you're saying, non relaunchers alike, including people who have very active legal practices who do pro bono work on the side.
So Nancy, thank you so much. We are running out of time now. I want to ask you the question that we ask all of our podcast guests, and that is what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about today?
Nancy Eberhardt: I think that one of the best things you could do as a relauncher is to follow your interests. If you are particularly interested in nonprofits, for example, find out who's working with nonprofits in your area. Is there a statewide association of the nonprofits? Are there organizations providing legal services or other types of services to nonprofits? Identify those areas where you think you might want to learn more and then find out.
I think volunteering is always a great way to find out if it's something that you would like to do, and whether it's something that you could end up doing, are there opportunities there? But I think volunteering with an organization, it's something we tell people who come to us, any people, not even people who are just looking for opportunities to get involved in the nonprofits, is volunteer.
That's how you get to know a non-profit. You get to understand what's going on there and you get to think, "Wow, this is a place where I would really want to make a difference." That volunteer opportunity might lead to a job. It sometimes does. But it might just help you identify better that this is a direction that you feel connected to, this is a direction that you would like to go in.
And I think that for everybody who is relaunching, finding out what those things are, what's available, and what really grabs you is the most important thing you can do.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Thank you. And Nancy, tell our audience, please, how can they find out more about Pro Bono Partnership?
Nancy Eberhardt: Sure. We do have a website. If you type into your search engine Pro Bono Partnership, that will take you there. We usually pop up first, or the website is www.probonopartnership.org. Pro Bono Partnership is just one long word, no spaces or punctuation. So www.probonopartnership.org , and there's a lot of resources there for nonprofits, for volunteers and lawyers, lots of opportunities there. And the website tells our story in a lot of ways.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Excellent. So, PROBONOpartnership, all one word, dot org.
Nancy Eberhardt: Yes, that's correct.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Nancy. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Nancy Eberhardt: Thank you very much, Carol.
Carol Fishman Cohen: And thanks for listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the chair and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. For more information on iRelaunch, go to iRelaunch.com, and if you liked this podcast, be sure to rate it on iTunes and your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with your friends on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media.
Thanks for joining us.